Babette Cirque

Horror Artist

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Babet is a clown that’s a self-taught character concept artist, illustrator, writer, and 3D artist.Though they show versatility in their work, they are most passionate about horror and fantasy.
These works are a journey to unlearning stigma and defacing religion.

The only page I have that's not listed here is Etsy.
If you see a page with my name on any site that's not listed here, then it's not me.

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• Read BYF: Disclaimer + Rant
• My Rant on Queer Discourse

Q: "What drawing programs do you use?"
Clip Studio Paint and Krita on my laptop. Procreate on my iPad.
Medibang is pretty decent, too, tho I don't use it anymore.Q: "Custom brushes?"
Nope. I use the default brushes in any program I use. And when I do make my own they're nothing special.Q: "What digital programs do you use for sculpting?"
ZBrush and Blender.Q: "What products do you use for traditional art?"
For sketching: Regular #2 pencils or mechanical pencils, drawing pencils, colored pencils.
Ballpoint pens and dip pens (two handles with assorted nibs). Ink by Winsor & Newton.
Markers from various brands.
For paintings: Watercolors (various companies) and acrylics by Dale Rowney and Arteza (my main painting medium atm.)
I would love to try gouache and oil paints in the near future.
Acrylic gesso also by Dale Rowney.
Paper/sketchbooks: XL Mixed Media by Canson, Acrylic by Grumbacher, both Drawing and Universal Sketching by Strathmore.
CanoScan LiDE 120 for scanning. Nothing too fancy IMO.Q: "Can I make fanart of your OCs?"
Yes! Just be sure to tag/credit.Q: "Can I use your art for my artstyle study?"
Sure! I don't mind as long as you, if posting, give credit, don't heavily reference/trace, and then profiting off it like it's your own original idea unless I'm getting half the cut.
Give credit where credit is due. Being an art thief is not worth it.
When you copy an artist's work, you're also copying their mistakes.
And trust me if you copy my art, you're gonna copy A LOT of mistakes.
I'm self-taught and never took the time out to learn proper anatomy or color theory soooo yea.
However much time it took you to trace could've been used on making art that's unique to you or spent on watching some YT tutorials. I guarantee you'd draw something better.Q: "When you finally drop your comics, where can I go read them?"
I'm not going anywhere near Webtoon and idk much about Tapas so for the time being itch.io it is.
I may change my mind but who knows.Q: "Can I share/repost your work?"
1. You must be an 18+ only account.
2. Credit and/or simply link my socials.
3. NO AI, crytpo, NFTs, or any other commercial use.Q: "Are you okay with ppl shipping your characters and/or making NSFW fanart of them?
If so, what are you comfortable with? Are there any squicks you have?"
With all due respect, I am not chronically online enough to care about shit like that.
Policing that behavior is impossible and not worth my time nor energy.
If you tremble at the idea of ppl shipping the "wrong" ships and sexualizing the "wrong" characters from your work, then maybe posting your art/OCs online is something you should reconsider.
I don't want to be controlled and have ppl tell me what I can or can't draw, so policing what others create would be very hypocritical given what type of artist I am.
My discomfort/triggers are my own to handle; that's what the block/mute button and moderation features are for.
Even if I myself can't enjoy it, I'm still grateful for said fanworks.
Fictional characters are just insentient abstractions; go nuts.
The only behavior I won't tolerate is the given: sending me or anyone else inappropriate comments, unsolicited NSFW, harassment/bullying, abusing medical language or weaponizing trauma to police art, re-purposing art/OCs that's not your own - overall any behavior such as that.
There's no kink or art that's gross or weird enough for me to have a moral panic attack and start supporting Christo-fascist conservative ideologies.
I may be a clown, but I refuse to perform respectability politics.
I will not hesitate to kill the mfs off entirely. In the most brutal, fucked up way possible.
♡('｡^ ◡ •｡`)🔪Q: "Have you thought about writing something more happy? People would probably like your stories and characters more."
And ppl need to learn that not every story is written for them, nor are they entitled to dictate how ppl should tell a story.
These are my characters and I do what I want with them, regardless of who likes it.
Art is subjective and some art isn't gonna be easy to digest sometimes, and that's okay!
Is the art problematic, or are you just pissed that it's not catering to your sensibilities?
Just bcuz it's not for you doesn't mean it has no merit and shouldn't exist; learn how to accept not being the target audience like the rest of us.
Art exploring the macabre and the obscene is not stopping pure, feel-good fiction from existing; they can continue to coexist like they always have.
There's more than enough feel-good stories out there; either go seek them out or make your own.
On a side note, I actually have written some SFW stories in my spare time and even thought about making them into comics, but I change my mind every time ppl have a knee-jerk response towards darker fiction.Q: "Making this type of art is unhealthy and endangering to others. Have you considered therapy?"
Yes and I'll start going when you start paying for it.
I don't have to prove anything to random delulus on the internet that thinks being uncomfortable is the same as being unsafe and only sees being anti-abuse as instant internet clout.
The world is run by a bigass pedophile cult but the only thing you care to be pissed at is ppl's weird little anime ships and drawings.
Mind you, this same pedo cult is vanilla asf and enforces censorship laws on any media they deem "problematic" or distasteful.
They hate "problematic" media just as much as you, but that doesn't stop them from killing millions and sex-trafficking kids.
These media bans are not abuse/violence preventions - they're coverups.
You don't actually care about the health of society bcuz if you did, you wouldn't have time or care to make time to worry about type of art ppl make.
Why? Bcuz you would be spending that time and energy doing abuse prevention work that'll help improve society instead of virtue signaling on social media.
Lo and behold, the world's still going to shit; it's time to re-evaluate your priorities.
If you're privileged enough to be invested in the morals of random online strangers and bitch about art of cartoon characters, then you're well-off enough to go protest or do some volunteer work.
I am not your scapegoat for you to feel morally validated cuz you desperately want approval, distraction from your own problems or wrongdoings, and/or to live out your little holier-than-thou authoritarian fetish under the guise of "protecting" and "justice".
Live out your little fantasies with a fictional character or a Barbie doll, not with me.
I don't owe you health, comfort, security, or even an explanation. I don't even owe you a warning.
Until it's coming out of MY OWN therapist's mouth, the show will go on.
໒꒰ྀིᵔ ᵕ ᵔ ꒱ྀི১〽 ▄█▀█🤡

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More Details About My Creative Works
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A rant on this performative, nonsensical, DANGEROUS ass "moral purity" movement going on in fandom/art spaces

DISCLAIMER
READ TILL THE END PLS TY!!!I am a dark fiction creator.My works are based around a copious amount of sensitive adult horror themes.
Mostly, but not exclusively:
- Erotic gore, eroguro
- Body horror, body mutilation, self harm, trauma
- Cannibalism, necrophilia, vore, etc.
- Teratophilia
- BDSM such as noncon/dubcon, male/femdom, etc.Mostly m/f and m/m. F/f occasionally.
Some works have deeper context, some don't. Some works can be more explicit than others.
Not all of my art is dark or 18+, but pages are still for SENSIBLE ADULTS ONLY regardless.
Will tag or provide warnings when necessary, but I'm also not your parent or babysitter.
I DO NOT CONSENT to reposts without credit and/or where non-consenting person(s), especially kids, can see.
If you're an adult that reposts 18+ art with the intention of kids seeing it, even if you censor it, I will immediately assume that you're a child groomer.
Censored, uncensored, tagged, or no tags - there is no valid reason for you to make 18+ material accessible to kids. Period.
Content warnings (CW) are for themes depicted and trigger warnings (TW) are for bright colors, flashing lights or anything else that can cause genuine harm and real issues.Characters, places, incidents, etc. are solely from my imagination.
Events and actions of characters are not condoned irl, are not based on real life experiences, and SHOULD NOT be re-enacted irl/used for real sexual encounters.
Most of my characters are 16 - 18+ or at least within the same age range but most don't even have ages, let alone birthdays or zodiacs unless stated otherwise.
Their overall designs, personalities, and stories are my top priority; even my adult characters don't have a specific age.
I, personally, prefer my own works to be adult-based, but again, I'm versatile in my work - I don't stick to just one or two themes.
You wouldn't know that cuz I don't make my art being filled with mainly "unrelated legal adults" my personality like I'm desperate for some approval and/or reassurance.
If I had something to hide or cared about what crazy assumptions ppl jump to, I wouldn't be sharing my art now would I?
Regardless of whether my characters are 18+ or not, they're fictitious; inanimate objects can't be exploited.
The only person(s) whose age and consent matters is the creator's and the consumers, not the dolls.I am NOT liable for misconduct or anyone's discomfort/triggers.
I will enjoy, draw, write, and post whatever I want bcuz my page is MY space, above all else.
YOUR failing in curating your space is YOUR problem, not mine.
I do not owe you “safety” or an explanation. I am an artist, not a social worker.
You are not entitled to anything I do over here. You can dislike my art and not be a damn zealot about it.
Don't like it? Then stfu, block, mute, scroll, click off, ignore, or all of the above. It ain't hard, I do it all the time.
The tags/warnings are there; I did my part, now do yours. If you have a hard time doing that, then social media is not for you.My art is gross. It is weird "freak-shit" or whatever else you wanna call it. Never said it wasn't.
You're intruding into MY space; YOU'RE weird for making it your business in the first place.
I'm a horror artist; I'd be more offended if you DIDN'T find it gross or upsetting. It's more than an aesthetic.
No one ever said you HAD to like these things, but you need to come to terms with the fact that art in itself is subjective.
Art has always been uncomfortable at times; it's GOING to be uncomfortable sometimes.
Not everybody's art is going to be easy to digest and it never has been.
Especially on the internet. You're GOING to see shit that you don't want to see, fictional and real life.
The internet is not your safe space and no one is obligated to handle your triggers for you.
You can't control the internet but you CAN control what you see on the internet.
Take responsibility for YOUR OWN discomfort, curate YOUR OWN online experience, and work your triggers out with a therapist instead of trauma-dumping random strangers on the internet.I thought we all were aware that the sole purpose of art and fiction was to entertain and explore difficult themes in a peaceful, non-destructive way with dolls from our little imaginations but, apparently, common sense and media literacy is no longer common and now we're stuck with ppl that thinks fiction is the reason why the world is on fire.
Let war, death, famine, and legalized kidnapping exist but GOD FORBID torturing cartoon characters!I don't have "DNIs" bcuz I, personally, I don't care to make any and most ppl only have them for clout.
Not only do a lot of y'all disrespect your own DNIs anyway, DNIs isn't protection from certain individuals or content you don't want near you or your page. Not everybody cares for fandom labels.
You can't trust a mf on the internet based on their DNIs alone and the way y'all depend on DNIs is sad.
You only see what's on the screen, not behind it.
I'm online enough to make it clear whom or what I don't want near me or my page, but I'm not chronically online enough to care about what ppl get up to in their own free time.
There's too much real-world shit going on in this dumbass country with these dumbass politicians for me to be debating the morals of random strangers that I don't even know nor care about - especially over their kinks, squicks, or what they do with imaginary characters.
Not only is that behavior dumb asf, it's weird asf bcuz none of that is any of my business to begin with.
What skeletons do you have in your own closet for you to be worried about what's in everyone else's?
Even if you're into shit I don't like, as long as you respect boundaries and not doing anything truly and harmfully illegal, we're Gucci; I don't care cuz that ain't got shit nun to do wit me.
I still defend artists that makes things that doesn't appeal to me; just bcuz it's not for me doesn't mean it shouldn't exist - especially considering that that same exact viewpoint can be easily switched back on me.
I don't antagonize an artist simply bcuz I'm not their target audience and I don't expect anyone to bend over backwards for my comfort as if I'm not a grown ass adult that should be able to handle my own problems without making it other ppl's problem.
If this is such a foreign concept to you or even somehow offends you, then that's a you problem.
Ppl's art only says maybe 10% about their character while your reaction to it says 90% about yours.
Being hostile towards a random person you've never met on the internet just bcuz they don't make shit that caters to you is nothing more than just bratty entitlement.
The real weirdo here is you.Common sense: If you are not a licensed professional, then you are not qualified to be giving out unsolicited psychological advice, diagnosing anyone, telling abuse survivors how and how not to cope with their trauma, discussing trauma art, and how fiction affects ppl's behavior and why ppl create/consume the art that they do.
The human mind is complexed; psychology takes YEARS of schooling for a reason!
It's not something you can learn overnight; TikTok and Twitter are NOT institutions.
Discussions about mental health was a something that nobody cared to have now suddenly everybody and their mama has a PhD.
The first thing you learn about psychology is that humans are not a collective; we are individuals with our own mindset and worldview.
Meaning you being so loud and insistent about random strangers you've never met, never formally spoken to, and don't know shit anything about being a threat in some way with no legit proof or reason is just you doing some psychological projection.
Being rude towards random strangers is already a red flag in itself, so fantasizing about them committing a crime is even more weird; at that point, you're just airing some shit out about yourself.
You are not the cops, you're just weird.
Take your own advice for once - go see a therapist. Preferably licensed.If you're gonna read this rant, then don't read it just to reply - read it to UNDERSTAND.
I don't block over disagreements bcuz I can handle criticism and different opinions; I block over disrespectfulness.
And I don't argue in circles with ppl whose entire existence is to purposely misunderstand ppl they don't like; I advise you block me before you get your feelings hurt.
Ppl simply disagreeing with you or challenging your narrative is not a personal attack. Volume =/= knowledge.I use common sense and evidence to form my opinions, not my personal feelings.
It's called being nuanced and openminded and not senselessly jumping on hate trains without having a clear or justified reason to.
My opinions are my own and I seek validation from no one.
No, I don't care about discourse but as an 18+ artist, I can't ignore the fascist, anti-porn ideologies being tossed around in online communities on websites that are ALREADY anti-porn bcuz this will inevitably impact me and my work and whether it gets to exist on the internet or not.

RANTI made this rant cuz I felt I had to speak up and say more than just "I'm neither proship, nor anti" cuz a lot of ppl in online fandom/art spaces has this very suspicious, weird-ass obsession with wanting ppl to be sexual predators.
I've seen some weird-ass/dumbass behavior and takes on ALL SIDES that I don't agree with so I made this to give MY OWN personal opinion on most of it from things I'VE seen and heard WITH receipts and sources.
Some proships are fucking stupid, but Antis/"Freaks DNI"s and anyone that shares their ideologies are fucking weird AND stupid.
You CAN be neutral on proship/anti-ship discourse. I don't care.
But you CAN'T be neutral on harassment and misinformation - ESPECIALLY if you claim to be anti-harassment and actually care about the wellbeing of kids and abuse victims and how they're being treated online.
Yes, fandom discourse IS a petty, first-world problem, but the harassment, abuse, and misinformation that's being spread in these communities ISN'T.
Shipping discourse has become a much deeper rabbit hole than just some NaruHina vs. Ichihime type shit.
I WISHED it could just be some stupid and funny shit like this like it have always been, but it's not.
Just bcuz it's about fiction and fandoms doesn't mean it CAN'T get dangerous.
Not only antis, or anyone that agrees with their ideologies, are obsessed with wanting ppl to be sexual predators, they're also far too addicted to actively seeking out content they claim is "harmful" and far too comfortable with reposting said content - even to kids. ESPECIALLY to kids.
You can be an "adult with a job" and still agree that fiction is fiction and isn't worth harassing, justifying abusers, misusing/overusing serious terms, and wasting resources over.I am not involved with any fandom groups and not interested in fandom labels.
I've been anti-censorship long before I even knew about these dumbass online culture wars.
When we say we are pro-artistic freedom, we mean that we are aware that, again, art is subjective and obscene art is going to exist like it always did and should exist.
It means we are mature enough to have fantasies and/or to let ppl have fantasies.
It means we have enough sense and responsibility to not confuse our personal discomfort with tangible harm.
It means that we're normal enough to judge creators by their irl actions and ideals, NOT by their work.
It means that our brains are mature enough to separate fiction from reality.
NOT that we’re oblivious to/condoning drawings that’s, again, actually MEANT to be hateful or predatory.
This should be common sense, but I guess not.First off, not only is this lil moral purity movement y'all got goin' on in online communities is CLEARLY PERFORMATIVE, it's asinine cuz if what we enjoyed IN FICTION is a clear presentation of our morals, then that means we're ALL guilty of some fucked-up shit.
There's more ppl in the world reading and writing about fucked-up shit than ppl actually DOING fucked-up shit.
If this "logic" y'all preaching was true, then all of your fave series, books, etc. wouldn't exist, now would it?
Wouldn't that mean we've all contributed to the exploitation and harming of individuals in some way?
I'm certain that the families of Dahmer's victims wouldn't appreciate you comparing the death of their loved one and their trauma to that of Michael Myers and his "victims".
If anything, they'd be DISGUSTED by you diluting their trauma and that you delude yourself into thinking you're doing them sum type of favor.Fiction is a form of ENTERTAINMENT and ESCAPISM - Not a morality test or an instructions manual.
Fiction CAN affect reality, but NOT on a 1:1 scale.
Fiction doesn't have the capacity to alter your ENTIRE moral compass.
Unless you're weak-minded asf or already a shitty person, you're not gonna suddenly think a bad thing is okay or repeat a bad act just bcuz the bad thing was in a book you read once.
The human mind is not feeble and weak; YOUR mind is feeble and weak.
"Bu-but the Jaws Effect--"
Bitch who AIN'T afraid of sharks??! How do you think they got the idea to make the damn movie in the first place?
Did the directors force anybody to go out and harm sharks? No.
And how many ppl actually went out to go harm sharks compared to the amount of ppl that just sat their asses at home?
"Bu-but Slenderman---"
Those two girls were mentally insane. Next.
"Bu-but Bugs Bunny's carrot--"
UNLESS YOU'RE A CHILD, you should know that taking animal advice from a slapstick cartoon about personified animals and objects is NOT a good idea.
Monkeys are capable of eating bananas, rats are capable of eating cheese, and rabbits are capable of eating carrots - doesn't mean that it's healthy for them.
Animals will eat anything you put in front of them - which is why RESEARCH is a thing.
So, are y'all gonna advocate for Jaws, Looney Tunes, and Creepypastas to be banned? You won't.
Depiction doesn't automatically means endorsement.
"There's a difference between depicting ppl being killed/mutilated and ppl being raped--"
So the brutalization of families is okay as long as it's not sexual. Right. Got it.
This is a huge ass slap to the face to all abuse and trauma victims.
Not only are you arguing that us SA survivors shouldn't have survived our assault cuz death would've been "better" for us than to live with the pain and trauma, but also minimizing how cruel homicide and other non-sexual violence is.
It's giving "If it's not physical or sexual, then it's not abuse." and "If it's not sexual trauma, then it's not real trauma." mindset.
"Th-that's not what we're saying!"
Inferring. It's not what you're explicitly saying or trying to say, but that's basically what your argument boils down to.
Even hurting someone in self defense can still be traumatic.
The fact that you even fixed your mouth to even say that shows that you don't give a fuck about homicide or abuse victims - especially with all these mass shootings and genocides going on.
I guess you ain't gotta be a dark fiction enjoyer to be an insensitive bastard, huh?
"If you like these things in fiction, then it must means it's close to what you like irl—"
Correction: YOUR fantasies are literal wishes and a clear reflection of YOUR morals.
Thanks for continuing to bury the existence of us aro/ace ppl cuz you can't (or don't want to) comprehend that ppl can have fantasies, sexual or otherwise, without having a desire to act on these fantasies IRL.
Just bcuz I'm horny on the internet doesn't mean I'm sexually active IRL; and even if I was, that's still none of your business.
There are lesbians that are attracted to fictional men, but aren't attracted to men irl.
You not being mentally mature enough to have fantasies without acting on them is your own skill issue.
Why do you feel that every media you interact with has to be "morally correct"? You can't prove your morals through your actions?
What swims through your head for you to be worried about what's going through everyone else's?
How many ppl in the world has intrusive, violent thoughts and they remain just that - thoughts? Too fuckin many.
How many ppl in the world has violent/inappropriate thoughts and have actually acted on them?
How many ppl that did compared to how many that didn't? Run me them statistics.
Y'all are too old to not know what impulsive and intrusive thoughts are and the difference between the two.
Consuming "morally correct" fiction and shipping "morally wholesome" ships ain't doing you conceited mfs any good otherwise we wouldn't have to have this conversation, now would we?
So fictional media is strong enough to influence certain behaviors, but NOT strong enough to reverse said behaviors?!
"Sure, it's just fiction, but there's a limit to everything---"
No matter what type of fiction, whether said thing is portrayed in a “bad light” or not, it depends on WHO is consuming said media, not the media itself.
You should have enough sense to know what's right and wrong and why that is REGARDLESS of how these things are depicted in fiction.
Y'all are basically admitting you'd go and "accidentally" harm someone if you read the "wrong" type of fiction.
Predators and bigoted assholes avoiding accountability, to put it simply.
A healthy mind should be able to differentiate fiction from reality.
There's no fiction in the world that can make a normal, healthy-minded individual do something they NEVER would do or thought of doing unless they ALREADY had a mind to do these things LONG BEFORE they even touched that book.
You should still have YOUR OWN conscious regardless of what you consume.
The media can't make you do or say shit; it didn't change you into a predator - it CONFIRMED you as a predator.You'll think every book is problematic when you have no media literacy.
If you DID have media literacy, you would know that nearly every media in existence IS "problematic".
It's almost as if most books are about human beings, written by human beings, and human beings are complexed (problematic) creatures.
Learn what "problematic" means BEFORE you use it, especially when describing art.
Bad ppl are capable of making good art and good ppl can make dark art. Some of us are versatile - we can do both.
Would you have guessed Hitler was a fascist genocide based on his art alone? No.
Would you have guessed Hayao Miyazaki overworked his workers, neglected his family in favor of his films, and then verbally bashed his son years later based on the nature of his films? No.
Would you have guessed Creepshowart was a stalker that was complicit with her rapist husband's abuse towards his ex based on her videos alone? No.
By that logic, you're saying that these ppl aren't problematic just bcuz their works aren't. Good art =/= good person.
We don't say, "Separate the art from the artist." for no reason.
A character/story not being written to be relatable or likable isn't "bad writing"; you're just illiterate.
Real ppl aren't perfect, so why should fictional ones be?
Characters in fiction do and say questionable shit or suffer from something that'll either be their redemption or downfall cuz it's meant to teach a lesson.
It's meant to get you out of your comfort zone and make you think.
Some stories has no clear hero or villain to give you the option to decide for yourself who's more in the right and who's more in the wrong.
These books show that even the "good" character is capable of doing bad things and the bad one is capable of doing good.
What lesson is there to be learned in an unrealistically positive story where nothing bad ever happens and everyone is a little Goody-Two -Shoes?
How will you be able to identify a toxic behavior if you can't recognize the signs?
Fiction depicting these things can help with that! Otherwise, you won't know what these things are until it's too late!
Pretending that these things don't happen isn't gonna stop these things from happening. We should not be encouraging ppl to suffer in silence.
Characters not getting the happy ending that they deserve is meant to show you that this happens irl and makes you feel more empathetic towards these issues.
This is basic 3rd grade reading comprehension. Reading is more than just calling out words; it's about analyzing and understanding the story, its characters, and the plot.
Stories can be interpreted in different ways and your interpretation of it isn't always the "correct" one.
Horror is a "problematic" genre in and of itself.
You EXPECT to be disgusted, scared, shocked, triggered, etc.
You indulge in horror cuz you WANT to feel these things - that's the entire point!
If you don't want to feel discomfort while consuming horror, then horror is not for you.
If you think things like CSA/rape, incest, and bestiality has no place in horror and/or think that a horror creator will be offended at you calling their work weird, gross, "freak shit", then you have a very skewed and limited perception of horror.
Congrats to the artist - they succeeded at their job!
The grotesque monsters in Silent Hill are manifestations of the characters' traumas, including SA, sexual frustration, forced pregnancy, child abuse/murder, etc.
There's a whole ass PENIS monster in SH.
They're not just in the game to make you piss yourself.
Aside from churches and cults, why else do you think SH is heavily focused on schools and hospitals?
"Silent Hill has no sexual violence in it." is just another "Metal Gear isn't a political game." Y'all can't read.
Does that mean I like any and everything depicted in horror? No.
I can constructively evaluate a piece of media pass my discomfort; I don't let my personal distastes for certain themes or tropes overpower my media literacy.
It's not inherently glorifying suffering, it's acknowledging that these things are apart of the human experience.
Just bcuz the story isn't pretty doesn't mean it shouldn't be told. These things does happen; it NEEDS to be talked about.
Horror is not that challenging of a genre, but apparently it's too complicated for y'all.
Just bcuz YOU don't want to read/write stories related to real-world problems doesn't mean others shouldn't.
If you want to only create/consume happy, yet lifeless content then do you, but you don't have to make it into some stupid moral thing; accept that it's just not for you and move on.
Yes, some artists do write stories to be didactic, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement for every story.
Just bcuz some art wasn't made to convey a deep message doesn't mean it has no merit. Fiction can be a spectrum.
ALL art says something even if it was meant to be meaningless slop.
Why did this acclaimed writer suddenly add an incest subplot to their story? Cuz they wanna try something new and explore in a non-destructive way!
Even if the character death, rape, incest, child abuse, etc. is just there for shock value... and?!
No shit! Are these things NOT shocking?! You were expecting NOT to be grossed out by these depictions??!
ALL of these things are horrifying and has negatively impacted ppl's lives; sexual assault and murder are EASILY comparable.
If you're gonna criticize my eroguro art, then criticize my gore art. If you're gonna defend my gore art, then defend my eroguro art. Either way, keep the same energy; my gore art can't exist if my eroguro art can't!
It's not that the depiction of gore/violence isn't problematic, it's just that online communities can't be anti-rape without being pro-murder.
This is fiction - made-up stories based on made-up scenarios about made-up ppl and making your art informational is NOT a requirement.
Artists are not teachers or therapists. We are not obligated to handhold or spoon-feed you. We are not obligated to cater to your sensibilities.
We are not responsible for your vulnerability to introjection. It is not our responsibility to teach you right from wrong; you should already know right from wrong.
You shouldn't need a PSA at the end of every chapter like The Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, especially if you're a grown ass adult cuz you should know better.
You needing a book for morals is your own problem and at this point you don't need "safe" or "reassuring" fiction; you need a therapist!
When you're not a mentally stable person, you won't be fine no matter what type of media you consume.
I can create/consume any type of media I want bcuz I have enough media literacy and sense to do so. You having to limit what you create/consume just to have morals is your own problem.
I'm all for cozy horror and feel-good fiction and whatnot, but if these medias are making you alarmingly scornful to art that's not any of these, then maybe you DO need to read shit that pushes you out of your comfort zone a little.
You aren't challenging your brain to think enough or to feel other types of emotions to evolve and it's showing.
Y'all are so obsessed with being unproblematic to the point that it's narrowing your scope of reality and reasoning; it's making you problematic.
Even non-fictional works are filled with bias; that's what research is for!

Transgressive fiction is like liquor. You have to be MATURE ENOUGH to consume it.
If you know you’re not mentally stable enough to handle it, then don’t.
How you feel and what you do after consuming it is YOUR OWN responsibility. That's what labels are for.
“I was under the influence.” is never a valid excuse bcuz you knew what you were getting into and/or what could possibly happen before you indulged.
Not every drinker is an addict, let alone an abusive one. You only become addicted if you ALLOW yourself to be.
It can be therapeutic, relaxing, and a good coping mechanism if done PROPERLY and RESPONSIBLY.
Not every alcoholic beverage will be to your liking; if you don’t like it, then don’t force it.
Stick to what suits YOUR OWN taste while still respecting other’s taste.
People are ALLOWED to consume/create transgressive fiction.
You don't need a "pass" to consume/create ANY type of media.
Things like rape, bestiality, pedophilia, etc. has been depicted in art and has been discussed in both fictional and non-fictional works for CENTURIES!
If these things hasn't been normalized after all this time, then it never will.
No amount of fiction OR propaganda should be enough to make you apathetic towards these things.
If you become desensitized to real-world tragic events just from reading a piece of fiction, that means you never saw these things as an issue to begin with.
Learning about Greek mythology didn't make you incestuous, now did it?
Reading Romeo and Juliet didn't make you pedophilic, now did it?
I can understand having to explain this to kids, but I should not have to explain this grown ass adults.
Either stay in school or go back cuz apparently your 5th grade teacher never moved you on from storybooks to teach you that not every story has a moral lesson.Censorship was never used to "protect" ppl from harmful media.
In the beginning, platforms banned adult content to deplatform sex workers disguised as "ending the exploitation of models", but as you can see, it went beyond affecting just sex workers over time.
Sex educators, therapists, adult artists, writers, etc. that also uses these platforms started to be affected by these rules.
Censorship hurts ALL creators, ESPECIALLY marginalized creators that creates works based around marginalized experiences.
And if you think your vanilla ass page is safe from censorship - think again, cuz even using certain words can affect your entire page.
"The way y'all only care to talk about censorship when it comes to porn."
Maybe bcuz the main types of content that's being banned/censored IS porn and other types of adult content?
Especially when it's based on kinks and LGBT+ themes? Thanks for noticing!
The way "kids" and/or "porn" comes to your mind when ppl are talking about the harm of censorship and how it has been used to silence the marginalized and control what media ppl consume says a lot about what be on y'alls minds 24/7.
The only libraries that has porn are public ones, not school ones (and are usually labeled as "Adults Only" and are cut off from the other book sections).
And who is responsible for what their kids read? Who's responsible for what their kids watch? Who's responsible for supervising their kid's internet activity? Their parents/guardian.
Puritan ideologies keeps kids oblivious to sex and predators take advantage of that ignorance - which is lawmaker's goal.
This ideology is much more harmful to kids than them seeing porn.
Queerness isn't inherently sexual, but do homophobes care either way?
If we were to start catering to everyone's sensibilities, there won't be much expression going around.
What's artistic to you could be disturbing to someone else; what's disturbing to you could be artistic to someone else.
You can't censor your way into a "safer" world; if it was that simple, it would've been done.
One thing getting censored does nothing but open up a gateway for MORE censorship.
Who are YOU to tell ppl what they can/can't write about?
You're not obligated to decide what type of art should or shouldn’t exist just bcuz YOU don't like it; the world does not revolve around YOU.
"Violent video games influences violence.", "Porn influences exploitation, rape, and child assault.", and "Queer/trans media forces homosexuality unto kids, glorifies mental illness, and grooms kids into being queer." are all the same discourse, but y'all ain't ready for that conversation.
It always starts with the purging of "undesirable" content - media that most don't care for, then the purging of everything else the general public deems "repulsive" follows.
Texas banned porn to "help teenage boys overcome depression", but as you can see it didn't do shit, now did it?
It never was about "protection" - it always been control-obsession and distraction(s) from THEIR OWN unlawfulness.
There is no middle ground on censorship; you're either for it or against it.
What makes you think book bans and media censorship would ever work in the favor of the marginalized when we're constantly being silenced, debated, and scapegoated? What makes you think it'll only affect the "right" targets?
You're not progressive, you're just a fascist with extra steps.Having kinks are normal and not having kinks doesn't make you any more or less normal.
Going out of your way to make ppl's kinks your business, prying into ppl's personal lives, and/or discussing your kinks without consent, however, is NOT normal.
Your personal discomfort in certain art or kinks isn't proof that it's bad/unhealthy.
Being uncomfortable isn't the same as being threatened.
Don't understand the kink? Then that's fine - it's not meant for you to understand.
You can find these things gross and still agree that art shouldn't be getting as much/more attention than REAL ppl being hurt.
Just bcuz these things happen irl doesn't mean that ppl shouldn't be able to write about these things.
Why else do you think ppl write about these things?
Is NOT writing about slavery going to stop slavery?
Is NOT writing about domestic violence going to stop domestic violence?
You're not saving anyone's life just bcuz you, allegedly, dislike fictional works portraying these things.
Good for you, but irl you're judged on how you treat real ppl, not what happens to a made-up character.
You are not entitled to anyone's life story to better understand something that's none of your fucking business to begin with.
If this hurts your little sensibilities - oh well.You can’t claim to hate incest, rape, loli/shota, underaged sex, or age-gap if you’re a fan of series that are filled with these same exact themes.
"Th-there's a difference between GRRM writing GoT/HoTD and the fanworks cuz he doesn't condone incest irl---"
You'll think any and all fiction is glorifying and fetishizing abuse when you have no reading comprehension skills.
And you OBVIOUSLY never been on GRRM's pages before. My dude calls the relationships between his characters "beautiful".
Not a very good talking point if I was able to shut it down with a quick glimpse of his social medias.
I’m well aware y’all are full of shit; no need to make it obvious.
Yes, GRRM doesn't condone incest irl, HOWEVER, that doesn't change the fact that he finds the incest between his own characters hot! He also loves sharing fanworks of his books and he's STRONGLY against book-bans/censorship. GRRM is technically pro-fiction.
Y'all are the same type of ppl that GRRM and other adult creators are always protesting against.
I see we're being pick and choosy with our little outrage, yet still supporting the same laws that'll negatively impact these creators and their work.
PORTRAYED IN A BAD LIGHT OR NOT, NO MATTER HOW SUBTLE, THE BAD THING STILL EXISTS WITHIN THE CONTEXT!
The incest in GoT/HoTD, Vampire Knight, Angel Sancturay, and Flowers in the Attic is still incest, right?!
The violence in DMC, Bayonetta, RE games, and literally every single fighting game in existence is still violence, right?!
When did MK characters look into the screen and say, "Violence is wrong kids."? Never!
The rape in JJBA, Berserk, Utena, Helluva Boss/Hazbin Hotel is still rape, right?!
The pedophilia in Sailor Moon, FLCL, South Park, The Color Purple, Lolita, Kakegurui, and Kill la Kill is still pedophilia and/or sexualizing minors, right?!
When and where in Sailor Moon was Usagi and Chibari's relationship criticized? Never!
Portrayed in a bad light or not, the racism/slavery, Nazism, and wars in Metal Gear, Hellsing, CoD, Wolfenstein, Static Shock, and war and slavery movies in general is still racism and genocidal violence, right?!
Metal Gear characters are still technically war criminals. Poor you if you think CoD is anti-war.
Sexualized or not, TBHK, Dragon Maid, Genshin, and Touhou are still filled with lolisho characters, right??!
There are non-fictional works that contains these things.
The BIBLE is filled with every gross "freak shit" thing you can think of.
Are we all not products of Adam and Eve??! Are we not born from their kids screwing each other?!
And how are ANY of these creators able to depict these things in their work in the first place? Cuz it's fiction, right?
The way y'all argue that these things can be either fetishized or depicted negatively when it's possible to do BOTH.
The bad thing can be fetishized AND criticized simultaneously; the romanticization is APART of the horror.
Ppl that are the loudest about abuse being glorified in art are either not paying attention to what they're reading, never experienced abuse themselves, or don't understand how complicated a lot of abusive situations can be.
There are instances where abuse victims forces themselves to enjoy their abuse, obey their abusers every whim for approval hoping it'll change them, and/or even deny that they're being abused at all.
Y'all don't understand that a lot of abuse victims are capable of sympathizing or can even still love their abusers.
Again, nuance. It's not always that black and white. FYI, the human brain is capable of feeling more than one emotion at a time.
Your inability to recognize and understand nuance is your own problem.
The only ppl that's mindlessly consuming fiction here is you.
Lolita portrayed CSA in a bad light, and despite Nabokov being very vocal against CSA and child predators, the book was STILL banned in certain places.
So what does that tell you? Negative depiction doesn't stop the subject matter from being upsetting or triggering.
According to y'all, murder/gore is always being depicted negatively, but as you can see these platforms are STILL banning gore along with everything else.
Is violence/gore always being depicted negatively in media, or are you just pretending that us gore fetish artists don't exist?
Even nonfiction gets banned.
Queer media is still banned/censored in certain places, so are you agreeing that queerness is bad?
"So-South Park isn't CSAM bcuz it's satire!"
So the exploitation of kids is okay as long as it’s "satire"? By that logic, you're defending Cuties bcuz the creator said she made the documentary to expose child exploitation in the entertainment industry.
"It's a fictional skit. These characters aren't real and no one is actually getting hurt." is suddenly a valid excuse when the shoe is on the other foot, huh? So NOW it's fake.
You can stomach all this underage and incest shit when it comes to your fave anime, but a fanfic depiction of these things suddenly got you triggered?! I don't believe that.
If it's gross then it's gross - you'd avoid it regardless.
A character or two would not be enough to make you consume media that's full of a depiction you claim to hate so much.
Reading/watching Utena isn't a necessity. There's millions of other feel-good shoujo WLW titles out there you could've consumed.
Watching Southpark isn't a necessity; watch Charlie Brown instead!
You don't even hate these depictions on a visceral level.
You only call yourself having a problem with these depictions when ppl you don't like (indie creators) are doing the depiction solely for clout - not bcuz you genuinely don't like it. The hypocrisy is LOUD.
Again, if ONE THING gets banned for explicit media, they're ALL getting banned.
GoT/HoTD gets more reach and made a much bigger impact than a fanfic with only 5 views and 2 shares.
It's OKAY for ppl to enjoy these things in fiction cuz, again, it's just entertainment, not endorsement.
These titles are about these things, not are these things.
No one is forcing you to interact with anything that you don't want to.
Scroll. Click off. Close the book. Fast-forward. Change the channel. Watch/read somethin else.
And if you claim you don't care about ppl reading/writing about these things, we wouldn't be having this conversation then.
By that logic, even your own fave creators wouldn't be interacting with you/you wouldn't be interacting with them.
Even if said creator's works are wholesome for the most part, that doesn't automatically mean they're not fans of transgressive fiction or even close friends with someone that's into said thing.
Do you know how many NSFW creators have made and/or helped work on SFW media?
Do I even need to get into how a lot of these creator's make NSFW works of their own characters in their free time? Disney is a prime example.
Published authors make fanfics of other ppl's works and make unofficial works of their own.
Y'all don't read enough to realize that millions of books are just self/OC insert fanfics of other books and paintings. Some ancient artworks were just mindless smut, too!
If you were to consistently drop media that was made by problematic or "problematic" ppl and/or that these ppl have contributed to, that would mean you'd have to drop 95% of media you ever liked!
Having a relationship with someone's work is not the same as knowing them on a personal level - you don't know anything about them except for the things they want you to know.
It is very weird and unhealthy to idolize random strangers just bcuz you like their work.
You don't know what the fuck anybody is getting up to in their free time, and it's not your place to know.
You don't know any and everything about your friends and you shouldn't cuz you're not entitled to every single aspect of their life.
We're all human beings. No one is perfect and you shouldn't expect anyone to be perfect.
For your own sake, you need to end these parasocial relationships or else you'll find yourself in a state of mental disarray when the "good" artist you worshipped turns out not to be the good person you assumed they were or you'll find yourself in denial and start trying to find ways to defend any and all of their actions.
If you didn't question the minds of Miura, Kikuchi, Takahashi, Nagai, and so on so forth, then I don't wanna hear it.
Y'all always argue that transgressive fiction influences bad behavior, but try to give certain creators a "pass" solely bcuz you just so happen to like their work.
Pretending that a piece of "problematic" fiction isn't problematic makes you much more of a problematic person than the ppl that acknowledges it as such.
If you gotta hoop through this much mental gymnastics to trick yourself into thinking your fave mainstream artist doesn't have a fetish or three despite them barely hiding it (if at all), then you don't need to be near ANY media until you either learn some media literacy or get a therapist.
There is no difference between pro authors and indie/fanart creators depicting bad politics; you're just pretending that there's a difference to alleviate the shame of you enjoying these works.
Even if the media is problematic, you should have some sense, so the media STILL isn't the problem - it's you.
If you need every piece of media to tell you to not be a horrible person, then you're a horrible person to begin with.
Look inward; is there a problem, or are you the problem?Y'alls selective outrage, handwringing, and backpedaling makes y'all so unserious that it's laughable!

Pro-ship isn't even short for "problematic shipping".
When someone says they're pro-ship/pro-fic, they're saying that they're sensible enough to separate fiction from reality and not harass just bcuz someone's art is depicting something they're grossed out by.
I'm not understanding how "Let ppl draw, write, and ship whatever they want as long as they're not hurting anyone." is normalizing abuse in any way.
"Your ship is not my ship, and that's okay." That's it. That's all there is to it. It's the same as saying you're pro-choice.
This is why "proshipper artstyle" isn't a real fucking thing.
"Proship" shouldn't even have to be a label online bcuz, if memory served me right, this isn't "proship ideology" - this is common sense, basic human decency, and basic online etiquette.
"But what about anti-proships that use to be proship?"
Either a lying-ass anti or a person that called themselves proship thinking it actually meant "problematic shipper".
You can't stop having common sense; it's either you have it or you don't.
Losing interest in dark fiction bcuz it started to negatively affect your mental health is fine, however, keep in mind that that's a YOU problem.
Refusing to mind your own business, making what random strangers (or even your own friends') jerk off to your business, harassing/doxxing, abusing medical language, and/or weaponizing trauma all over cartoon art is much closer to psychopathic behavior than shipping gross little anime ships, but that's another conversation y'all ain't ready for.
You're deadass sitting behind a screen wondering whether some random incest shipper on the internet is having a thing with their irl relative just bcuz they're shipping made-up characters that have nothing to do with them or their real families.
Okay, let's say that IS the case; why are YOU so invested/interested??!
Like… fucking ewww? What are ya, a voyeur? Cuz why do you even want to know all of that regardless??!
Your prying into random stranger's kinks will always be weirder than the kink itself. Why do you care so much, bud?
What are you doing in YOUR free time for you to be worried about how other ppl spend theirs? What's going on in YOUR house?
Try projecting your fantasies on to fictional characters next time instead of being an invasive creep.I would love to see y'all go out irl and realize that normal ppl also thinks harassment/doxxing and making ppl's bedroom business your business is also weird.
I would love, love, LOVE to hear y'all explain why your indulging of incestuous noncon is somehow much more morally righteous than other ppl doing it. Enlighten me!
While you're at it, may I kindly remind you of your "If you like these things in fiction, then you must like these things irl." comment?
"I do still read age-gap, noncon, and incest fics, but not in a gross proshipper way."
"I do have CSAM stored on my hard drive, but not in a gross pedophile way."
If you like BakuDeku tentacle rape porn, then just say that bcuz there's no way you're reading it to NOT get your rocks off.
The problematic art isn't suddenly not problematic anymore just bcuz you're the one that likes it. Anyone can be a predator, so who tf ever said YOU couldn't be one?
I would pay good money for y'all to be put on a podium and regurgitate these exact same talking points and see how normal ppl would react.
These spaces ain't got shit nun to do with you; they don't want nor need you.
If you can't stay in your own lane online then I doubt you're any different in person.
Even if pro-ship WAS short for "problematic shipping", again, it's pertaining strictly to TAGGED fictional content, not real ppl/events.
Y'all act like ppl are going around and just shoving the shit in your face.
No one is calling you an evangelist Christian "anti" for having squicks.
We're calling you that cuz you're making ppl's fantasies your business (and attacking them for it) and your squicks everyone else's problem.
Why do y'all "Proships DNI"s act like y'all are the only ones with squicks? EVERYBODY has a squick!
Not all proshippers are into dead dove. Not all proshippers like incest.
Not all proshippers like age-gap or lolisho. Some proships don't like NSFW in general.
No one is victimizing you for having squicks; you are not special.
There’s a lot of things I find uncomfortable in fiction and there’s kinks that I don’t like, either.
You just wouldn’t know cuz I don’t go around acting like a lil bitch baby Karen over it.
Y'all pull the victim card over every little thing.
Y'all think that proships go out of their way to make ppl's squicks their business cuz y'all go out of y'alls way to make ppl's kinks your business. Just bcuz you're a Peeping Tom doesn't mean everyone is.
There's no such thing as "problematic" fiction cuz it's not real.
No fiction, especially fanfiction, can be dangerous cuz it's not mandatory reading.
No one is twisting your arm to interact. That's the power of free will, you can choose what can and what not to interact with.
So if you went out of your way to interact with dead dove shit and ignore tags/warnings on art, then that's YOUR OWN damn fault.
What's the point of having DNIs if you're just gonna interact anyway?
It wouldn't be a problem if you had DNIs and ACTUALLY minded your own business.
If y'all spent more time curating your spaces, using the moderation tools provided, and not making ppl's weird lil fantasies and what they do in their own free time your business rather than pissing yourself, then maybe you would see some results!
AO3 is full of tags, bookmarks, and filters for a reason - to make it easy for you to find the type of fics you do like and to avoid fics you don't like.
"You understand that using AO3 may expose you to material that is offensive, atrocious, immoral, obscene, triggering, blasphemous, bigoted, erroneous, or objectionable in other ways." is literally a line in their TOS - that you were SUPPOSE to read before making your account.
When you agreed to that TOS, you CONSENTED to being exposed to this material - that's YOUR OWN damn fault!
If you're having a hard time navigating AO3 or finding yourself still whining about "triggering" content despite the warning(s) and tools being there to help you avoid said content, you either need to learn how to use AO3 or stay off AO3 entirely.
Plain and simple.
Every SNS has content filtering.
Google has a SafeSearch mode (that has been on by default this past year).
Again, the internet is not your safe space; you gotta put in the work just like the rest of us.
If you don't like it, then why are you searching for it? You must like it, then.
Your algorithm adjusts to what YOU interact with and search for. The more you interact with something, the more of it you'll see.
Your algorithms and internet browsing isn't safe bcuz you don't want it to be safe. If you don't know how to read, then don't use the internet.
Not everything is going to be tagged cuz, again, no one is obligated to give you warnings.
It's still easy and simple to just scroll and click off. Removing YOURSELF is an option, too.
No one is obligated to make their work palatable for you cuz it wasn't made for you in the first place.
Your squicks and NOTPs ain't nobody's problem but your own; no one owes you comfort.
Ppl been shipping "problematic"/weird ships, aging up characters, sexualizing characters, etc. for decades.
If it didn't cause a crime outbreak then, it won't cause one now. And even if it did, what are YOU gonna do about it other than cry about it online for some Twitter applause?
Something being distasteful is not equivalent to being harmful.
If y'all didn't care about what ppl got up to in their own free time, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
No normal person gives this much of a fuck about niche fanfiction bcuz a normal person knows what an actual problem is.
Everything becomes a problem when you don't know what a real problem is.
It's not that I agree with any and every proshipper take, it's just that anti ideologies makes the least sense.
First of all, it's just fascist/Nazi ideals rehashed to fit fandom. Second of all, antis are a bunch of hypocrites that can't even operate by their own logic.
They go search for and consume the same exact shit that they claim is harmful and when questioned, again, they backpedal and go "We-well it's satire!" or "I-it's okay as long as I'M the one that's consuming it."
Not realizing that they just agreed with the "proshipper" sentiment that the media is fake and it's the person and not the media.
Don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't even lead by example.Are proshippers and their "ideologies" really harmful, or is this just y'alls attempt at creating a moral scapegoat?
Are these ppl ACTUALLY condoning these thing IRL, or is it just pearl-clutching and y'all making shit up?
OR are you projecting?
Bcuz y'all are taking these little video game and anime ships a little too seriously and a little too personally and the instant flinching and backtracking y'all do when met with the most simplest of criticism is concerning.
Any and everybody can't be the problem, now; you're throwing stones and hiding your hands for a reason.
Y'all fandom Christians need to be more concerned about all the child grooming, abuse, and violence that goes on in y'alls churches and schools than what ppl ship and write about on AO3.
Give that concern to REAL living ppl that are actually going through these things.Half of these ships y'all cry over don't even be weird or "problematic" - y'all MAKE it weird.
If open incest-shippers and incest-ship haters alike are telling you that a ship isn't incest, then maybe it's... not incest??!
If there's no biological ties, then it's not incest. Found family is not incest. Sworn brothers/sisters is not incest. Their baby won't come out inbred, I promise.
Everything's incest when you don't know what incest is.
Ppl simply calling each other brother, sister, etc. doesn't automatically mean they're related. You Christians should know this.
DMC fans crying about Nero and Kyrie, two none blood-related consenting adults (a canon relationship that's been established since day 1 btw), is incest... as if it hasn't been implied in DMC3 that the Sparda twins get hard-ons every time they fight each other.
Plantcest is technically canon and every other ship that comes out of Trigun is underage/age-gap.
Inuyasha fans crying about SessuRin (which is canon now) as if Inuyasha isn't already about a 200+ yo demon man falling in love with a 15 yo human girl.
Kuroshitsuji fans crying that ppl ships Sebaciel is funny asf to me especially considering that Yana Toboso THEMSELVES implies Sebaciel.
The corset scene is one of MANY implications.
What relationship do you have with your own dad for you to think that Sebastian and Ciel's dynamic is a "father and son" one, let alone a healthy one?
Sebastian is very emotionally and verbally abusive to Ciel and even has abandoned him on several occasions.
A ship being non-sexual doesn't make it any less "problematic".
Aside from them having similar goals, the mfs hate each other. Y'all can not read.
Y'all bitch over ppl shipping "problematic" ships from medias that's already problematic; you're already in a "problematic" fandom.You can make an AU where Kaeya either never lost his parents or never met Diluc and his dad. BOOM! Instant fix! A retcon that would not hurt Genshin's already sucky ass lore.
If you're insistent that a ship between two characters that aren't related in ANY way is incest just bcuz one of their parents decided to babysit (or in Diluc's dad's case - kidnap) I'm just gonna assume you're a closet incest-shipper.
Even if Kaeluc was incest... and? They're two fictional characters from a fucking video game. Whose lives is it affecting?
Y'all talking as if a game full of selfcest/incest didn't win GOTY 2022.
Y'all deadass called Jotahan "more of a pedoship than Josuhan." just bcuz they have a big age-gap even tho they're both 21+.
"Bu-but that means he was 18 when he was--"
It would've been a problem if the person was a minor at some point IN the relationship.
I think a lot of y'all are closet "proshippers" the way y'all cry over ships that aren't even weird, but fight tooth and claw to defend ships and medias that actually are.
My manipulative monk OC and his necrophiliac bf is NOT a "wholesome" ship just bcuz they're both unrelated, consenting adults.
A piece of media can STILL be problematic even without the depiction of sexual topics, nor is it problematic just bcuz it's not teaching you morals or catering to the sensibilities of white Christians.
You can have your own interpretations and headcanons while letting ppl have their own without starting a fight over it; these characters won't come out of the screen and kiss you.
Having a fit over fictional characters is one thing, but having one over characters that you don't even own is another.
This is fiction - the possibilities are endless.
Bestiality is when someone is attracted to something that's not human.
If we're gonna get technical about it - vampires, orcs, aliens, mermaids, angels/demons, and even elves all counts as bestiality,
Might as well avoid the fantasy genre cuz it's FULL of it. You can't fuck a werewolf or an elf IRL.
Almost every piece of media you engage with is "problematic" - get over it.
Whatever freak shit y'all are into on the DL, either learn to embrace it or get some help cuz your fear of ridicule for having these fantasies is, ironically, revealing you as a psychopath.
The issue is running deeper than just having squicks. It's like you're using your "morally correct" fantasies to compensate for lacking morals IRL.
Regardless of the reason you're tripping out over little cartoon ships, you need to get your ass off the internet and invest in getting a therapist (preferably licensed).
If you already have a therapist, this is the point when they'd advise you to get off the internet/delete your socmed apps for a while until you learn how to better handle your discomfort. Or your guilt.
Fandom is now less fun with Barbie dolls and more about ppl making up problems that they think they can fix in place of contributing to solve real ones.Online art/book communities aren't worth being called such if no one in it wants to read and just want everything spelt out for them.
One of the biggest parts of being a creator is coming to terms with the the fact that we all have different perspectives and not everyone's work is going to conform to your ideals.
If you want to continue to have freedom of speech/expression, you have to learn to be okay with everyone else's; even the ones you disagree with.
I can't stand alpha males and their pick-me's, either.The only fictional art that I actually would deem problematic are NSFW/fetish art of real ppl and self-inserts like VTubers for obvious reasons.
It's not them literally, but it's an abstraction they made in their image.
There are creators out there that DON'T MIND ppl sexualizing or shipping their self-inserts and it would be very dumb to be offended on behalf of someone that doesn't care. You can just simply avoid it.
Keep in mind that these are REAL ppl with boundaries, UNLIKE fictional characters.
As long as you're not going and being inappropriate towards these ppl irl, it's fine.
But if said self-insert or even OC belongs to a kid, you shouldn't sexualize it regardless.
Is it still worth harassing ppl over? No.If you claim to be proship yet belittle ppl for finding certain fiction/tropes uncomfortable, harass ppl for THEIR OWN ships, accusing another proship of being an anti just cuz they don’t like the same shit as you, or get upset when someone makes a character LGBT+, a POC, and/or disabled then you are a hypocrite.
It's all "Let ppl draw what they want." until someone draws your lil loli waifu black and/or trans.
If you send unsolicited porn of any kind you're fucking weird. It's not a damn gotcha, that's sexual harassment and pedophilia if you're sending it to kids!
ALSO, y'all need to learn how to ignore kids and young adults - OF COURSE they don't know what they're talking about.

If you're someone that has weird kinks but shame others for their own weird lil kinks then your pick-me, kiss-ass opinion is automatically invalid.
Ofc you'd defend YOUR OWN kink. No surprise there. You're definitely not biased.
It doesn’t make sense to be anti-proship when you, yourself, is into some form of fucked-up fiction.
You are a gore, furry, whatever artist crusading against an anti-censorship/pro artistic freedom "Depiction doesn't automatically means endorsement of these things" crowd. That's ass-backwards.
If it wasn't for these proshippers and their ideologies, you wouldn't be able to share your violent art.
You're proship DNI and don't even know why you're "proship DNI".
"I'm scared of antis cuz they'll harass me for liking vore but I rather trust them than the proshitters."
Stockholm syndrome ain't healthy and not worth the internet brownie points, fam. You ain't hurting nobody but yourself.
After all the ass-kissing is done, those SFW artists will still have their platforms and will still be able to share and profit off most of their work. YOU won't.
If a lot of SFW creators really cared about their NSFW counterparts being allowed on these platforms, then we wouldn't always be the first to get kicked out.
We wouldn't constantly have to petition to payment processors about their strict and invasive policies to allow us to host adult content.
Assuming these companies, that are run by predominantly Christian conservatives, would give a fuck to debate which kink is "good" or "bad" is idiotic.
When conservatives say "degenerates" and "freaks", they mean YOU.
Don't be outchere calling ppl freaks and degenerates like you're not one in your own little way. It's the pot calling the kettle black. Cognitive dissonance.
You're a clown performing respectability politics on quicksand. And for what? Validation that you will never get?
If SNS don't allow a little nipple despite claiming to be "artistic nudity friendly", then what makes you think they'll be lenient with you?
Patreon still banned artists that made it consensual porn of their characters bcuz, in their eyes, the imagined consent wasn't "clear enough".
You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
Hell, making a living as an artist in general is already hard enough as is due to being exploited, under-appreciated, and now being replaced with AI slop.
Corporations are not NSFW or minority-friendly enough for y'all to try to dictate what type of fictional content should or shouldn't exist.
There's no room to be pick and choosy when we're not even the ones in the White House making the decisions and none of the mfs in it has our best interests at heart.
NSFW and queer media is just a sneeze away from becoming fully illegal.
You want to be a NSFW creator but can't handle the libel that comes with it, so you project the misery of your internalized puritanical beliefs onto other NSFW creators.
A LOT of ppl that are triggered by murder or even just slight blood, too.
If not tagged properly, or if in the wrong hands, gore art can be JUST AS HARMFUL as any other taboo art.
Kink isn't mainstream or meant to be bcuz it's taboo bcuz most ppl are, understandably, grossed out by it.
Y'all call ppl "freaks" for sexualizing incest and pedophilia as if we aren't doing the exact same shit with homicide.
Your gore kink is weird and fucked-up just like the rest. This is coming from a gore artist.
The difference is that I'm not a coward and can stand ten toes in it without having to pardon violence or throw other NSFW artists under the bus to justify my own like me being a gore artist is different somehow.
I don't make my squicks into a moralistic standpoint bcuz if I was to say, "I don't depict ___ in my art bcuz I don't condone it.", that would just be me implying that I condone EVERY OTHER bad and problematic thing in my art. This is why I just simply say that it's my squick.
You can't speak for all furries bcuz some furries actually are zoophiles.
You can't speak for every gore/horror artist bcuz some actually are violent. Some of us go beyond being just edgy.
And sweeping the existence of these bastards under the rug to save face says just as much about you.
Being a furry doesn't mean you can't be a child groomer; too many of your pack members got exposed so yea you have a point - your characters being anthro animals don't mean shit.
Fictional incest and pedo isn't illegal for the exact same reason fictional murder and furry isn't illegal - cuz no living thing is being endangered.
Stop creating double standards that delegitimizes what other ppl go through.
If their shit gets banned, then our shit will get banned eventually and I'm not about to have what little artistic freedom I do have on socmed and what little monetization I can get from it get taken away cuz y'all act like y'all can't just simply dislike things without making it into some stupid ass moral battle that nobody cares about, doesn't make sense, and won't mean shit for any of us.
There is no moral hierarchy to sexual fantasies, regardless of how vanilla or freaky they are; our squicks are not universal.
Whatever you say about other ppl's fetishes being gross or evil, there will always be ppl out there saying the exact same things about YOUR fetish.
And I'm not even counting the normies that are squicked by porn in general and has admitted to reporting any and every single porn-related thing they see; fascists hate ALL of us equally.
Jumping on moral panic bandwagons as an 18+ creator will NEVER end well for you.
If you want nuanced discussions on your kink or art, then you need to learn how to have nuanced viewpoints on everyone else's. If not, then things won't change.
There's nothing normal about drawing dripping dog weiners and ppl getting gutted, either; grow up and get over it.
If incest and pedo art desensitizes ppl to these things, then gore is capable of desensitizing ppl to murder.
And apparently it HAS desensitized y'all to the idea of murder and all that if you're arguing that it's "better than" and "not comparable" to incest and pedophilia as if kids and adults alike don't get chopped up and skinned alive irl.
You're speaking from experience; it all makes sense, now.
"I wish there were more websites that allowed gore art. :("
Nah-ah-ah don't cry! That's what you asked for! The tune changes when you realize you're not an exception, huh?
Go ahead and give yourself a lil pat on the back! You deserve it for shooting yourself in the foot.
All that's left now is putting it in your mouth.
While you're doing that, I will still advocate for YOUR freedom of speech and expression since you're not radicalized, self-loving, or courageous enough to fight for your own rights.“I’m neither proship nor anti. I’m normal. :)”
Are y’all the same “I’m normal”s that cancelled and harassed an artist that said they rather ppl be attracted to anime lolis than actual children being hurt (despite them stating that they find loli shit gross themselves)?
Are y’all the same “I’m normal”s that harassed a black artist bcuz they didn’t give their characters' ages/zodiac signs bcuz they simply didn’t think much about it cuz it wasn't relevant to the story?
Are y'all the same "I'm normal"s that harassed an Eastern artist over their fan story that followed the exact same plot-line as y'alls precious Inuyasha?
Are y’all the same “I’m normal”s that harassed an artist and calling them a weirdo for not only lewding a fictional robot, but for pointing out how y'all pay more attention ppl drawing weird shit than expose real predators in fandom spaces?
Y'all weren't mad at what they said - y'all were mad that what they said was true! Y'all weren't ready to face that reality and basically proved their point.
I’m not a proshipper or an anti either, but the moment y’all see that my perspective is TOTALLY different from yours, then suddenly my opinion doesn't matter, either. Hmmm.
So you’re “neither proship nor anti-ship” but you’re still bitching and moaning about gross, yet irrelevant-ass freak shit over harassment, huh?
If you police morals over fiction PERIOD, you’re an anti. You’re not exempt just bcuz you, allegedly, don’t harass.
Shaming and harassing is not criticism. Conflating ppl's real experiences to that of fiction is not criticism.
Making baseless accusations towards ppl just bcuz their fantasies grosses you out is not criticism.
“I’m calling out antis for their gross harassment and doxxing and proshippers for allowing disgusting ships in fiction.”
How is shipping FICTIONAL toxic ships and harassing ppl over said fiction AT ALL comparable?!
How is writing about fucked-up shit AT ALL comparable to actually DOING fucked-up shit?
You're comparing gross, yet harmless fiction that you DON'T HAVE to fucking read to shit that actually IS harmful.
Again, I’m aware there are weird-ass proshippers, but even I can sit here and tell you that the worst proshipper is NOTHING compared to the worst anti.
Antis aren’t only noted for their harassment and doxxing - their TALKING POINTS are also harmful.
You're not neutral - you're an anti in denial. OF COURSE, you're not gonna openly agree with bullies and doxxers. You don't have the balls to.
Y'all would make a 10-tweet thread talking bout why you shouldn't sexualize fictional "kids" and other dumb shit about fiction, but then when someone provides you with research debunking your claims OR when prompted to give research of your own, then suddenly it's crickets.
Quick to give criticism but can't take any, huh?
If you're neutral on harassment, you have chosen the side of harassment.
Y’all are only “anti-harassment” when it comes to you and your own mutuals. You and your moots ARE the antis you claim to be against.
You disregard the facts and mix the valid criticism up with the weird-ass takes and hide behind "Both sides are wrong." when any normal person can clearly see that one side is more wrong than the other.
Y'all are obviously addicted to discourse and negativity.
Not all lolicons/proships sent you unsolicited porn or criticized your distaste for these things.
You've only had like 2 - 3 negative commenters while the other 5+ commenters were giving valid criticism, like asking you if you're claiming this is CSE/CSAM, then why are you reposting it instead of reporting it to the NCMEC.
Not everyone that disagrees with your stance are proshippers or lolishocons; some of us are outsiders just looking in and realizing that a lot of y'all lack common sense.
Y'all double down and deflect so much cuz what y'all can't stand more than the weirdos and the freaks is being proven wrong.
Y'all fuckin BURN when ppl say they're grossed out by lolishocon, but agrees that it's not comparable to real CSA or when any normal person agrees that their squicks and things that ARE harmful are not the same.
Y'all are so use to your followers and mutuals coddling you and mindlessly agreeing with you that you can't handle an ideology that's different from yours. Your weird ass behavior isn't not weird just bcuz your little circle supports it.
The way y'all rather continue to be ignorant and gaslight ppl into complying with your narrow scope of thinking than to do any type of introspection and research is unusual to me - especially when you're claiming to want help better society to keep ppl safe.
You're not anti-abuse if you disregard any and all professional guidance concerning the topic.
Just bcuz you're entitled to your opinion doesn't mean you should be going around and treating it like it's a fact.
You have to conduct research and cite sources just like everybody else. If the source of information is not supported by a multitude of professional resources, then it's unreliable.
If y'all were openminded and respectful with your concerns and could actually take criticism, then maybe ppl actually would consider what you have to say.
All this talk about nuance in fandom spaces, yet everyone lacks nuance; it's all just pearl-clutching, moral panics, and knee-jerk responses rather genuine criticism or extensive research.
Y'all need to grow up and just accept that ppl just have weird little fetishes and that it's not inherently a bad thing.
When you're so self-righteous to the point you think you somehow know more than a group of licensed individuals that works with criminals and psychopaths for a living, you won't listen to anyone.
Don't engage a conversation that you're not knowledgeable or sensible enough to have.

Y’all be wildin' when a proshipper turns out to be an actual predator but go M.I.A when one of your normal and pure "Proship DNI" buddies gets exposed for the same shit.
Y’all will deadass deflect discussions about kids in fandom attempting suicide after being harassed over a ship, how “safe adults” encourage kids to engage with 18+ pages, grooming them into being “pedo-hunters” just to argue that proshippers are “using it as a gotcha”.
What happened to the "Fiction isn't worth harassing/doxxing ppl over." energy? Or is that a sentiment you acknowledge only when proshippers are the ones doing the harassment?
Dodged the discussion about anti adults in fandom grooming kids to interact with 18+ spaces.
Didn’t take time to acknowledge that a REAL child was hurt bcuz of this discourse.
NOT directing your anger towards the group that ACTUALLY harmed them.
NOPE! You’re more pissed that a proshipper is discussing it, cuz you care more about shaming the freaks every chance you get than the wellbeing of children.
Okay, what’s your point? A child still got hurt. Kids are STILL getting hurt in fandom. The damage has already been done. Proshippers shouldn’t even be on your mind, at that moment.
We’re suppose to be protecting kids from harm in online spaces, right?
We’re suppose to make it known when a person/a group hurt a child, right?
You wouldn’t have known about the suicide if a proshipper haven’t said shit, right?
So what’s the problem?!
Using it as a gotcha or not, they’re STILL bringing awareness to the situation.
Again, y'all use a proshipper getting exposed as a predator as a gotcha. That actually IS the case with y'all most of the time.
So every time it comes up that someone from YOUR space is an actual predator, or when a child gets hurt, you're gonna divert the discussion to the proshippers every single time?
It’s giving, “Protect minors and abuse victims, but if they’re into weird, freak shit then FUCK EM!”
It's easy to play the blame game, but what are you gonna do to help kids?
You accuse any and every proshipper of bringing up these incidents “as a gotcha” to deflect from your guilt.
You don’t wanna face the fact that ppl that share YOUR ideologies and talking points are the MAIN ONES harming kids.
You don’t wanna admit that y’alls little online moral purity crusade that y’all call yourselves setting up to “protect kids in online spaces” is doing the exact OPPOSITE!Whether a lil Reddit post is legit or not, this shit actually DOES happen - It IS happening.
So kids are incapable of bullying, now? So juvie isn't a thing?
Not only are y'all pretending that there aren't any predators in y'alls spaces, y'all are pretending like kids can't harm other kids.
Of course you sat there hoping, praying, wishing it was fake cuz that post was hitting too close to home for a lot of y'all.
Yes, it is y'alls fault why kids are voluntarily going into 18+ spaces and harassing ppl other kids.
Most Eastern artists don't even know what proship/anti discourse even is and even they noticed that most of the Westerners that harasses them and their friends were "Proship DNI"s so they started encouraging their mutuals/followers to block anyone with this in their bio and anyone they're mutuals with.
Now let's talk about you so-called "anti-pedos" removing "Proship/Problematics DNI" from your bio just so you can continue to see anime art (the art Y'ALL claim sexualizes children).
So lil anime art is more important than the wellbeing of abuse victims and children?
So the call is coming from inside the house, huh?Predators lurk in ALL corners of the internet. They don't sit in one place.
NO community is perfectly safe.
With that being said, 9/10 child predators lurk in SFW spaces bcuz, no shit, kids are in these spaces.
How likely is an online groomer gonna come across a child in NSFW spaces compared to SFW spaces?
What spaces do you think they're gonna try their damndest to get into? Spaces that's easily accessible to kids, right?
Nickelodeon is a KIDS network, and you see how that went, right?
Predators have ALWAYS lurked in fandom spaces. Yes, this IS an issue!
The thing is y'all are so dependent on fake-ass DNIs and more paranoid about mfs being proship and/or being into lil freaky fiction than them possibly being an actual fuckin problem and it's making it EASIER for real predators to hide!
What groomer is going to admit to being a "problematic shipper" if they're trying to get close to kids?
What groomer would admit to being a lolicon if they're trying to get close to kids?
What groomer will have "18+ No Minors ⚠️ 🔞" in their bio if they're trying to get close to kids?
Predators don't settle for freaky fiction when they want the real thing.
What do predators do? They camouflage!
They know that all they have to do is pretend to understand CSE language/project their guilt unto lolishocons and proships to bring children into their "safe space" to manipulate them. And y'all are letting them.
No normal adult cares THIS MUCH about being appealing to kids.
Most proshippers call-out/report ppl that actually are predators, regardless of whether they're proship or an anti.
In anti-proship spaces, on the other hand, as long as you're talking down on proships, you can get away with anything.
Where were y'all when BNHA cosplayers were grooming kids on TikTok? Oh yea - crying over
Erin Clover shipping her F/O with Bakugo.
Let's talk about y'all pulling content from 18+ pages and passing it around in SFW spaces saying that it's "okay" just bcuz you censored it.
Let's talk about 20+ yo anti-proships sending proship minors rape/death threats.
Let' talk about adult anti-proships calling themselves "safe adults" to gain kids' trust to groom them.
Let's talk about "safe adults" pretending to be minors just to get into certain spaces. But fuck that!
Gotta put an end to these gross-ass proshippers and their gross-ass fictional ships, right?
Y'all show more compassion toward kids that don't even exist than real ones - the ones that can actually get hurt.
Half of the ppl in fandoms that lewds fictional minors and ship weird/toxic ships ARE minors.
Half of us discovered our kinks WHEN we were minors. This is not a gotcha - it's a fucking fact.
Could I have shared my noncon gore fetish fantasies online as a kid?
Yes, but I didn't cuz I had sense enough to know that I wasn't old enough yet and I would've been endangering myself, other kids, and adults.
Has it ever occurred to y'all that some ppl write about teen sex and all that jazz bcuz it's drawn from their own personal experiences that they couldn't understand and/or openly discuss when they were this age?
So you expect these stories to be written by actual teens??
If a teenager wrote an 18+ book, of course they have to wait till they're 18+ to publish it bcuz, duh, kids can't publish mature media, regardless of whether it's personal experience or fantasy.
I came across all kinds of 18+ shit when I was underaged. Intentionally and unintentionally.
Some were fire and some was not. But, again, I had sense enough to know that I was the one intruding into these spaces.
I had enough mental stability to see these things and be okay afterwards.
I don't condone nor condemn minors consuming/creating 18+ content bcuz, duh, they will regardless and I'm not gonna pretend that they don't bcuz a lot of us did, too.
Admitting that you're aware that kids are also into "problematic" art is you admitting to spreading this ideology KNOWING that it's also gonna affect kids.
So not only do we have to worry about kids getting groomed in online spaces, including anti-proship spaces, we NOW have to worry about kids getting harassed and doxxed over ships/drawing - and y'all not giving a fuck cuz everyone's too focused on gross anime ships than whether someone is truly a threat or not.
If you're comfortable with/don't care about kids getting harassed just bcuz they're proship, then you're comfortable with hurting kids in general.
Even a kid being a genuine asshole shouldn't be enough to make you comfortable with hurting them in any way.
So if proshippers don't give a damn about kids, y'all don't give a literal FUCK about kids. So what's y'alls excuse?In order to protect kids from online groomers, you have to know what a pedophile/groomer ACTUALLY is.
NOT throwing "pedophile", "groomer", and "CSE/AM" around mindlessly online is one of the most simplest ways you can help kids stay safe and y'all can't even do that!

A fictional character's age is arbitrary that's barely relevant to the story or their character development.
"It's just weird that out of ALL the characters you could lewd, you decided on the child characters."
Maybe bcuz ALL fictional characters are just CONCEPTS with their own unique designs and personalities?
Do you know how many child characters were adults and adult characters were kids in their earlier concepts before the creator decided to make them canonically younger or older?
How many characters were the opposite gender in their earlier concepts?
Is there a 18+ yo character that looks, acts, and dresses exactly like Sakon/Ukon that I don't know about?
Any and everything about a fictional character is arbitrary and any and EVERY aspect about them can be CHANGED.
A character won't have a name, gender, DOB, family, etc. until the creator of said character gives them one, and not every character has or needs all these details to tell a story.
I can't help that my once 13 yo very much existent self will continue to age while Filia will forever remain 16.
I thought most Saint Seiya characters were at least 16-20 until I gave a bit of a damn to read their bios to discover that most of the characters were just 13 - 16.
This dope-ass character with a unique design, cool personality, and development to match but y'all think ppl only like them bcuz they're canonically -18; by that logic, I would've liked Kagome and Sasuke annoying asses.
Gaara is an adult in Boruto. Guess what? I STILL like Gaara! The only thing I don't like about adult Gaara is that dopey-ass gel mold for hair he was designed with.
I didn't forget that 0.25% of fictional characters have ages, I just remembered that they ALL are just that - fictional.
Imaginary. Make-believe. Nonexistent. Abstractions. Figments. Fictional characters cannot age with us.
Even kids don't like kid characters bcuz they're kids.
Since we're getting technical again, if I was to make selfship art of me and Josuke 4, HE would be the pedo bcuz he was canonically born in 1983 - he's 15 years older than me. Even his manga is 6 years older than me.
If simpin for Kakuzu as a kid couldn't influence me to exploit myself to adults, then what makes you think still simpin for Kimimaro would suddenly influence me to be attracted to kids as an adult?
Are y'all really tryna sit here and argue that kids are more mentally mature than a grown ass adult? Cuz, as y'all may know, we've a name for ppl that's insistent that kids can be "so mature for their age".
The age and appearance of my fictional crushes VARIES; that must mean that there's something I like about these characters that has nothing to do with their canon age.
Even if all my fictional crushes were confirmed 18+, it wouldn't make a difference cuz I'm hardly attracted to anyone IRL, let alone kids. I wasn't attracted to most ppl even BEFORE I was assaulted.
Us aro/aces are attracted to fictional characters BCUZ they don't look like real ppl; we like them BCUZ they're fake.
Cosplaying as one of my fantasies won't suddenly make me attracted to you. You can't fuck Kakuzu or Josuke IRL.
Fictophilia and pedophilia are two vastly different paraphilias; just bcuz YOU fit into both categories doesn't mean everyone does.
Of course it's hard for YOU to tell the difference when you're already attracted to kids.
"Why age up a minor when there's so many adult characters you can choose from?"*
Why cosplay and parade around as a child character when there's so many adult characters to cosplay?
Why race-bend a character to be black when there's already canon black characters?
Why gender-swap a character to be a certain gender when there's already so many characters of that gender?
Why retcon a straight character to be queer when there's already so many gay characters?
So are fictional characters not just inanimate objects with no personhood, or do you think that's only the case when it's to fulfill your fantasies? Adult characters can't consent to you sexualizing them, either.
This isn't "proshipper" ideology; this is common sense. It's not controversial to point out the obvious - you're just delusional.
Dora being fictional is the BIGGEST reason Filthy Frank was able to get away with his "The Explorer" song.
"I rlly like this character but I hope they're 18+, or gets a college arc so I can properly crush on them."
You mean like how child groomers befriend minors and wait till they hit 18+ to start flirting with them so they wouldn't get in trouble?
"Y'all age up characters so you wouldn't get in trouble."
And Y'ALL hope for the creators to age-up their characters canonically so YOU wouldn't get in trouble.
That means you were already attracted to the character before the time-skip, so what difference does it make?
You see how your OWN logic is swinging back on you?
Why wait for the character to be canonically aged up when you can just do it yourself? What if it never happens?
No one is getting in trouble for playing around with a fictional character's age.
But watching y'all be hard-pressed over rules that YOU made up is always entertaining tho!
"It doesn't matter that you 'aged them up', you still see them as a child---"
How out of touch with reality do you have to be to think there's a such thing as an "aged up minor"?
Wanna know what an aged up minor is? A fucking adult.
Everybody was a child at some point; nobody stays a kid forever.
Y'all still throwing a hissy fit even when ppl age-up characters to be literal GILFs clearly shows that aging up characters isn't the issue - it's you cuz you think kids aren't allowed to grow up.
Damn if you do, damn if you don't at this point.
Fictional characters came out of their creator's brains, not their loins.
I didn't know Araki was claiming Giorno and Trish as dependents on his taxes; the more ya know!
Giorno and Momo having their tits out are their CANON designs.
Kakegurui is an anime full of teenage girls having ON SCREEN orgasms over gambling.
The teens in Devilman Crybaby having sex with adults happened IN the anime. ON SCREEN.
In the Persona games (3 - 5), you're playing as high schoolers and the devs gives you romance routes for the adult characters ON TOP of all the child grooming that goes on in Persona.
Utena is filled with pedophilia, grooming, rape, AND incest. Censored, but still ON SCREEN!
Y'all cry about ppl aging up and sexualizing "minors", but will turn around and go consume media that either ALREADY sexualizes its minors or endangers them in some way.
You didn't care about these "minors" being beaten and/or molested when YOU were engaging with it, so why are you clutching your pearls about "child endangerment" now?
What more can the fandom put them through that they haven't already experienced?
If Utena fanfics are CSAM, then Utena itself is CSAM. So we're cherry-picking CSA??!
Are you gonna cancel your Crunchyroll membership? Are you gonna stop playing Persona? No, you will not!
Wolfwood from Trigun is a 12 yo boy that aged physically due to experiments. Dizzy and her son Sin from GG are 2 - 8 y.os.
They're underaged, yet I see y'all sexualizing these characters all the damn time.
Do you even care about these character's ages, or are you just looking at their appearance?
If you're gonna make "Don't sexualize underaged characters." a rule, apply it to ALL underaged characters.
And if you're 25+, that should include 18 - 19 yo characters. Go all the way.
What about characters whose canon age is unknown like Bridget's and Testament's?
Haku from Spirited Away is 12 in HUMAN appearance - not age.
Link's canon age is unknown bcuz it varies every game!
If I found myself being paranoid over whether a fictional character I simp for has a canon age or not, I just wouldn't consume fiction.Let's consider real-life laws here: You won't "catch a case" behind Biscuit, Tornado, or Toto.
Why? Bcuz these characters ARE adults.
You WILL catch a case behind Part 3 Jotaro, Part 4 Josuke, and Yoko Litner bcuz these characters actually ARE minors.
BiscuitGon and VashWood are both pedo-ships.
Arguing that ppl shouldn't crush on Biscuit cuz she looks underaged is the same as arguing that it's okay to crush on Part 3 Jotaro cuz he doesn't look underaged.
This is why adult/minor-coded rhetoric is VERY harmful; not only to short adults, but ESPECIALLY to kids that are more physically developed for their age. Also ableist cuz it's basically a drive-by insult towards ppl with dwarfism.
Short and/or petite bodies and soft features isn't exclusive to kids.
Being tall, body hair, and boobs isn't exclusive to adults.
There are kids with premature signs of aging such as gray hair or even face wrinkles.
Uzaki-chan's body isn't "unrealistic" (it's almost as if cartoon characters are unrealistic bcuz they're parodies of ppl) just bcuz you've never seen a big tiddy shorty before.
Curves don't just sprout outta nowhere as soon as you turn 18. Most of us big boobed adults were once big boobed kids; I wasn't able to go without a bra since I was 9.
My mom struggled to find bras for me, soI had to go to school with two bras on for support and to make them seem smaller for damn near the entirety of junior high. She struggled with the same thing since 2nd grade.
Ppl use to think I was older bcuz of my body. I've had female classmates and grown women going as far as body/slutshaming me bcuz I had a curvy body that I didn't even ask for.
You're basically saying that older guys that flirted with me or ogled at my chest then weren't pedophiles cuz I could "pass" as an adult.
Now that I AM older, a lot of ppl think I'm younger. I've even had high schoolers flirt with me until I told them that I was in my 20's.
I've had older ppl not wanting to flirt with me bcuz they thought I was a minor (which is understandable, but there's nothing wrong with asking).
I experienced both sides of the spectrum: I wasn't "adult-coded" - I was a kid. I am not "minor-coded" - I'm an adult.
There's a bigass difference between looking like a kid and actually BEING one; being mistaken for a kid most of the time doesn't change the fact that I'm NOT a kid.
I do so LOVE being bodyshamed and infantilized by the same exact mfs that accuses other ppl of infantilizing me!
Now if a person ASSUMED I was a minor/said I reminded them of a child and PROCEEDS to flirt with me, THEN it counts as pedophilia.
The only person that needs to be clinically evaluated is you if you're outchere calling short ppl "child-sized" cuz I can only imagine how you'd react towards tall/curvy kids.
Is it inappropriate to design a character with big tiddies, or have you fetishized big tiddies so much to the point you think they're inherently a sexual trait and not something that's completely natural?
Your strong reaction to seeing a boobie bigger than a B cup, especially on a shorter person, is a sign of internalized, repressed issues that you rather project than introspect; it ain't our fault that you're feeling things that you ain't suppose to be feeling.
A professional doesn't need their PhD to tell you that being attracted to a short person or a caricature is not enough to prove someone's a pedophile; the only way you're a pedophile is by actually being one.
A lot of these accusations are sounding like confessions.You can also apply this concept to villain characters.
Liking Ghostface is not the same as fetishizing Dahmer. Fictional characters, fictional problems.
Liking a morally grey character doesn't automatically mean you condone their actions IRL.
It gets concerning when you try to weave a false narrative that said character is "secretly good" or "misunderstood" to justify liking them. You can like James Sunderland and still acknowledge that he's a bastard.
Liking a Nazi character won't turn you into a Nazi - you were already a Nazi.
"If you like Hisoka or Adam, I don't trust you."
They are villains. They weren't meant to be good ppl.
Lemme name some of y'all HEROES that are pedophiles:
Inuyasha, Sesshomaru, Chibari/Tuxedo Mask, Mista, Polnareff, damn near every adult in Bleach, Jiraiya, Shang (yes, the Mulan one), Princess Bubblegum and Marceline.
Even Vampire Hunter D almost boned Doris, a farmer girl that was described as being "around 17" which implies that she could've been younger if not 17.
The OG PPG had a CANON age-gap episode.
Did you call the cops when 18 y.o Princess Bubblegum kissed 13 y.o Finn on the mouth?
Did you call the cops when Rangiku and Yoruichi flirted with 15 y.o Ichigo? Did you call the cops when they showed him their naked bodies?
Did you call the cops on the teachers in Southpark for grooming their students?
No? Why not?
These are minors being exploited, right? These characters being fictional isn't an excuse, right?
So what's YOUR excuse for not getting the law involved?
Oh yea! This is the part when y'all backpedal and go "I--it's not illegal--" bcuz you just realized you, also, have engaged with these questionable medias like the rest of us and basically accusing YOURSELVES of being pedophiles.
Again, if you're aware that it's not illegal cuz these characters are just figments of the imagination, therefore no one is being endangered in any way, we wouldn't be having this conversation; cuz that would mean you're smart enough to discern what's an issue and what's not.
That means you'd have sense enough to not treat fictional characters like real ppl. Unserious.It's nobody's fault that you can't tell the difference between a bug-eyed, bottle-necked, helmet-hair, no-lips, no-nose, one-big-longass-tooth-on-each-gum, Dorito-chin havin ass fictional character with an arbitrary age (or lack of) and a real, breathing child.
It just sounds like you can’t separate fiction from reality to the point that you feel the NEED to restrict what type characters you can or can't simp for to keep your little morals in check.
If you know you don't mean kids any harm, you wouldn't feel the need to go through such lengths for reassurance.
You not trusting yourselves enough to simp over an abstraction cuz you're scared you'll become attracted to real kids and criminals is your own problem.
Go handle your scrupulosity with a professional cuz if you're scared of fucking up in your thoughts then you'll inevitably fuck up IRL; you don't even trust yourself in your own escapism.
I don't need constant reassurance cuz I can differentiate between an E.T. lookin-ass drawing with same-face syndrome on a 1500x2000 px canvas wit a 350 dpi with from a real person.
It ain't nobody's fault that your brains ain't mature enough to be consuming fiction to the point you have to force morality that you, apparently, didn't already have.
It's not an any and everyone issue - it's a YOU issue; it's internal, not external.
Fawning over fictional characters in general is weird in itself. Calm down."How's it feel to not be allowed around a school?"
Not only is this joke tone-deaf, it's just overall lame.
Unless you're a student, parent/guardian, apart of school faculty/staff, security, or invited as a guest speaker, NO ONE is permitted anywhere near school grounds, let alone should have any business lurking around one in the first place.
No normal person would celebrate being "allowed" near a school like it's some sort of achievement, either; it just ends up sounding like you're ecstatic that there's less competition.
Idgaf if I'm "allowed" or not I don't wanna be anywhere near a school anyway. Too many traumatic memories.
I can take a joke as much as the next guy, but deadass accusing ppl of being pedophiles and joking about them harming kids in the same breath is pretty damn weird, don'tcha think?
Y'all cry your lil hearts out about ppl sexualizing fictional kids, but laugh your asses off at the idea of ppl possibly hurting real ones. Suspect.Y'alls fixation with the topic of pedophilia and obsessing over whether someone's touching on kids or not IRL just bcuz 1/10 of their cartoon crushes is a teenager ain't normal, either.
It's giving fetish and/or projection rather than a duty to protect kids.

Serious terms such as grooming, fetishization, pedophilia, incest, gaslighting, trigger, disassociate, etc. are NOT terms you should be using irresponsibly, especially on things that are not legally, morally, factually these things.
Ever heard of alarm fatigue? The result of abusing alarming terms to the point that it loses its urgency and meaning that they're intended to have to keep ppl safe?
Y'all speaking about abuse and child exploitation so nonchalantly in fandom spaces is proof of this.
If you're not gonna use these terms properly, then unlearn them. You're not sensible enough to use em.
Yes, these things ARE real issues, which is why you should reserve these terms and outrage for when it ACTUALLY applies.
When y'all say shit like, "This person is sexualizing minors." any normal person will think you're referring to ACTUAL minors, not a damn anime character.
Not wanting to depict underaged characters in your work is FINE; no one cares!
We're saying that y'all need to stop treating fictional characters like real ppl cuz it's distracting from REAL issues.
You're crying "pedo" when there's no pedo and crying "kid" when there's no kid and getting ppl riled up constantly over nothing to the point ppl will stop taking these accusations seriously - especially when it NEEDS to be taken seriously!
This is the result of not knowing (or caring) what an actual issue is - you risk REAL issues getting overlooked.
It's not about you and your comfort; it's about keeping ppl focused on real problems.
These terms are NOT culture war slurs and buzzwords for you to just throw around.
These things aren't illegal just bcuz it's "gross" and "weird"; they're illegal bcuz it's HARMFUL.
That means that a living being is being endangered; you can't endanger an inanimate object.
Again, if you're quick to accuse random ppl you've never met of a crime with no legitimate proof and immediately become hostile at ppl simply criticizing how and why your lil method of singling out predators is illogical and/or ineffective as "defending pedophiles" or whatever, I'm only gonna assume that you're guilty of said thing and just projecting your guilt on to random ppl.
It takes one to know one.This moral panic over fiction is LESS about protecting ppl from predators and MORE about miserable-ass individuals wanting validation by putting themself on some imaginary moral high pedestal and shaming ppl for not abiding in their little made-up rules and cult behavior.
You're not anti-abuse - you're just using us as meat-shields to justify YOUR predatory behavior and enforcing censorship on art that YOU don't like. You're no different from politicians.
You wouldn't be minimizing our very real experiences and trauma to "win" trivial ass culture wars.
You wouldn't be conflating real suffering with the happenings of fiction.
Having to ask, "Was this person flirting with kids, or do they just like an anime character?" is not progress.
Being anti-child predator is the BARE MINIMUM on the moral scale.
Anybody can be anti-pedo, even Nazis and rapists, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still shitty ppl. You can BE a pedo and still be anti-pedo.
Being anti-pedo doesn't absolve you of your wrongdoings - you're a predator in your own little way if not a closet pedo.
Try improving as a person elsewhere then maybe I'll be impressed. Don't strive to be a good person, strive to be a decent person.
"Protecting kids and abuse victims in online spaces" is nothing more to y'all than a reason to openly hurt ppl for clout and a coverup to avoid criticism.
We are not showpieces for your vanity. We are not your social experiment. Our lives and experiences are not thought pieces and gotchas.
We are LIVING human beings - not abstractions on a screen or a piece of paper.
Don't go around assaulting ppl and then claim you're doing it for us cuz you're not; you do these things for YOUR OWN gratification.
No normal person would ever feel the need to brag about or prove their goodness.
Everybody is anti-abuse until it comes to doing REAL abuse prevention work.
There's always a selfish motive behind y'alls so-called "activism" - if you're not rewarded in some way, then you don't care.
When are y'all gonna get up and go DO something that'll actually improve society?
Y'all are always quick to say that ppl don't care about kids or survivors cuz y'all don't care about kids or survivors.
Never did and never will.Pedophilia is an attraction to real, breathing CHILDREN!
NOT to "childlike" behaviors.
NOT to "childlike" clothing.
NOT to transgressive fiction.
NOT Cookie Run, Annoying Orange, or fuckin XJ9.
It's already stupid to accuse ppl of committing a crime over fictional nonsense, but it's even more stupid to accuse ppl of being so over characters that aren't even real ppl in their own titles.
Y'all cry up and down about art depicting age-gap/pedophilia normalizing these things while simultaneously making pedophilia sound like a fucking joke.
CSE/CSAM (Child sexual exploitation/child sexual assault material) are images and videos of real kids being sexually exploited/assaulted.
Not only can pedophiles get their hands on this material, it also exposes that child's identity and can endanger them further.
In irl cases, it's not about a child's appearance or behavior, it's about their AGE and the fact that they're easy to manipulate and CAN'T CONSENT.
A victim's appearance and actions would never be considered in irl cases cuz that would be victim-blaming.
Pedophiles that flirted with us weren't looking at our uniforms; they were looking at the fact that WE were young!
By that logic, they would've been ogling our teachers that wore the exact same shit.
Our school uniforms was just khakis and a button-up shirt. I was harassed by the same guys even out of my uniform.
Instead of making kids feel bad for the body they have and for what they wear, tell the predators to fuck off.
I thought we were pass blaming ppl's promiscuity or their appearance, but I guess not.
Not every young person that was assaulted looked, acted, or dressed anything like this; predators don't have standards.
If it's not concerning REAL kids and/or pedophiles, then it's not pedophilia.
If Belle Delphine is engaging in ageplay, then it should be fine as long as her and the party involved are also consenting grownups. The only person she's exploiting is herself.
If her allegedly selling nudes of herself and other minors when she was a minor some years back is true, then THAT is a problem.
Porn/kink is rarely ever problematic bcuz this content are for ADULTS, a group that should have common sense enough to know that these are consenting, unrelated legal adult ACTORS engaging in a simulation.
You're still supporting the same moralistic legislation and holding fast to the same Christo-fascist ideologies that's used to stigmatize/criminalize SWs, just directing it towards "undesirable" adult creators or kink practices and pretending like it'll somehow not affect SWs as a whole still. It's almost as if most SWs are also apart of the kink community, including CNC, incest, and age-play (which are, arguably, the most common kinks).
There's a lot of layers to kink and why ppl enjoy the scene; y'all just look at the first layer and think that's all there is to it. You're gonna have to do a lot more digging beyond Fifty Shades.
Just bcuz problematic ppl can get into these spaces doesn't mean that the space was curated for them.
It's not the paraphilia or the content - it's the person.
"Bu-but this person IS kink-friendly and even they said —" And that person has internalized, conservative viewpoints.
Again, there's kinks that I'm grossed out by, but I know how to set boundaries without supporting fascism.
Y'all need to grow up and learn how to differentiate shit that just merely weirds you out from shit that really is a problem.
Having squicks isn't the problem, it becomes a problem when you adopt the fascist mindset that the thing shouldn't exist.
Y'all spend more time defending ppl from abuse that never happened than focusing on actual abuse.
"I— I AM pro-SW/adult content, it just some of y'alls content is harmful to minors."
Then you're not pro-SW cuz "harmful to minors" is the oldest, reused conservative straw man against SWs in the book. Are you insinuating that there's porn intended for minors?
Child endangerment does not start or stop with porn.
You're not pro-SW if you think porn addiction is a real thing. Kink is apart of porn as it is art; porn IS art.
A fascist that owns a pride flag and fetish wear is still a fascist.
Let's NOT give predators the benefit of a doubt, please.
Cuties wasn't criticized for the subject matter, it was criticized and bashed for the PRODUCTION: they casted REAL minors! They subjected REAL minors to sexual exploitation.
There's nothing wrong with making a piece of media that discusses child exploitation; the problem is they used REAL kids to do it.
“Don’t sexualize children." is such a controversial statement online now cuz you dumb mfs MADE it controversial by conflating the exploitation of kids with lopsided ass fictional characters; it's a true statement that y'all never use for the right reasons.
Again, it's not about protecting kids - it's about getting rid of adult content."Loli" and "Lolita" has no hidden sexual meaning. Lolita is NOT a kink.
Are there lolitas in sex work? Yes. Are there kinky lolitas? Yes, but the lolita subculture in itself is not a kink. It's a fashion.
How many kids do you see wearing petticoats, bloomers, and corsets?
Who said that only kids can wear these types of clothing?
These are other names for "Lola" and is a shorter version of "Delores" (hence the girl's name in Lolita).
Japan took up the terms Loli and Lolita for the name of the aesthetic cuz the name is very cute in Japanese.
Nabokov didn't invent the name.
Loli/shota is a trope that describes a fictional character that’s petite and often times paired with cuteness, just like Japanese lolita fashion.
It has nothing to do with age or kids and it’s not inherently sexual. Not all lolisho art is NSFW.
If that was the case, ALL underaged characters would be considered lolishos, not just the short/petite ones.
Again, Kakegurui is an anime full of teenagers that are hella sexualized, yet the only character that's considered a loli is Runa.
Kill la Kill, another anime full of sexualized teenagers, yet the only loli character is Nui.
Both aren't nearly as sexualized as the other characters. By that logic, Wolfwood would be considered a shota.
Just bcuz something can be a fetish doesn't mean that it's inherently fetishistic.
It's a character archetype just like bifauxnens, bimbos/himbos, bishōnens, ikemens, etc.
Leorio is often categorized as a dilf character despite him being only 19 yos with no kids. Characters aren't categorized by their age - only by appearance.
You can be a lolishocon and can still be capable of liking more mature characters.If you believe loli art, or art in general, is CSAM, then you wouldn't save or repost it.
When most ppl post photos of minors online of any kind, what do they do? They censor their faces, right?
Why? To protect their identities.
Shouldn't you censor Deku's face to protect his identity? Why only censor his genitals?
Would you save pictures of real kids kissing to your phone?
Would you save pictures of random kids to your phone, period? No?
Okay, so why are you saving pics of these fictional kids, then? They're still kids, right?
Them being fictional isn't an excuse, right? Your words, not mine.
If those were kids, you wouldn't have these pictures. Unless you're guilty of what you're accusing other ppl of being guilty of.
"Bu-but I'm reposting it to warn ppl--"
Very normal reaction to seeing a pic of a so-called sexualized child. Or is it suddenly not a child anymore?
If you called yourself being mindful of kids/other ppl's triggers, you wouldn't be reposting said art for many reasons.
You're leading them straight to it and "warning" them about shit that they wouldn't even have known existed until YOU showed it to em.
If they do come across the art on their own and had SENSE, they would just block and move on.
Kids have kinks - loli/shota included. Kids will do the OPPOSITE of what you're telling them to do bcuz kids tend to be curious.
Kids already sneak on 18+ pages KNOWING they're not suppose to be there.
You just gave kids free porn recommendations, smartass!
What if ppl already curated their spaces to the point when seeing these things were no longer an issue?
Congrats! You just put it BACK on their feed. Smartass!
That's like buying a kid an M-rated game then slander the company for traumatic damages.
And, again, half of the "problematic" art y'all be reposting were made by kids that aren't mature enough to realize that they're not old enough to be sharing that type of art online yet.
Better question: How tf do you fandom adults keep getting your hands on some kid's NSFW art and why are you sharing it knowing that it was made by a kid?
Even if it has no warnings, that still doesn't give you the right to repost it. Leave that shit where it's at!
If they don't know how to moderate their socials and can't READ the warnings that's ALREADY there to the point they need ppl to act as "hall monitors" just to navigate pass shit, then they don't need to be on the internet!
Possession and distribution of CSAM is a CRIME.
If I, too, didn't know any better, I would just simply report you and the source to the authorities.
I don't give a shit about your intentions and the law damn sure doesn't cuz you are STILL in possession of CSAM. You're STILL endangering a child.
Softcore porn is still porn, censored porn is still porn, and censored CSAM is STILL CSAM.
Censored or not, NO normal adult would show kids porn, nor discuss the happenings of porn to or with kids.
If you're gonna be skeptical of ppl that makes this art, then you should also be skeptical of ppl that searches for it bcuz NO normal person, let alone an adult, would go actively search for and keep something they think is illegal - ESPECIALLY if they think it's CSE/AM.
No normal person would not report something they think is illegal - especially if they think it's CSE/AM.
At this point, I'm more concerned about what's on YOUR hard drive cuz why is y'alls first reaction to finding alleged CSAM is always to save and share it?
Cuz if you say you treat fictional kids the same way you treat real ones WHILE saving/reposting NSFW art of fictional kids, then you're implying that you own CSE/AM.Let's talk Creepshowart:
Shannon made a video about an artist named Aggy and her art, which features underaged characters in sexual situations, claiming it as CSAM.
First off, there were 4 red flags about her video:
1. Having said art IN the video.
2. Providing a LINK to the artist's page.
3. She didn't even go to the COPS about the situation.
4. Claiming that she consulted with a lawyer before making the video.
If you have common sense, you would know that this was obviously a lie bcuz if that art was CSAM, Shannon's video wouldn't be up.
Why? Bcuz she would've been arrested for the possession and distribution of CSAM.
If Shannon DID consult with her lawyer about the art, that lawyer would have explained to her that the art is cartoon drawings and that accusing someone of a crime with no legit proof could result in a lawsuit against her.
Meaning Shannon IGNORED her "lawyer" and willfully spread misinformation about said art and Aggy anyway.
Either way, Shannon was voluntarily getting herself in trouble with the law like the psychopath she clearly was.
The video was filled with so much harmful misinformation that even a LAW STUDENT had to make a video debunking the entire video in full detail (which I would link if she didn't private it, so I'll respect her privacy).
Shannon and her husband having pics of his ex as a child and blackmailing her with them explains a lot as to why she saw no issue with sharing art she claimed was CSAM.
Shannon's distaste for this art sure as hell didn't deter her from owning CSAM of an actual person, now did it?
Shannon was a bigot/predator that exposed other predators to cover her own ass.
It's also worth mentioning that Aggy IS a CSA survivor.

The thing about these commentary channels is that they all are mini-Shannons. They don't want to do their research and prioritize their own biases over actual facts.
These ppl are bunch of vanillas bringing a topic of kinks to other vanillas AND children when they, themselves, are uneducated on the subject and don't understand that kink is VERY nuanced.
And when these channels do claim to have sought out professional sources, either they didn't, cherry picked the research. ignored research they don't agree with/challenges their narrative, or they only did to make their biased argument seem credible cuz they know their unquestioning, loyal subs would take their word for fit without doing their own extensive research.
This topic is far too sensitive and complicated enough already without y'alls spreading disinformation and exaggerating half truths.
Your blatant hyperbole is doing nothing but making shit worse.
DO NOT listen to commentary channels UNLESS they're also a professional/provide professional proof and even then listen to the PROFESSIONALS, NOT the non-professional that runs the channel.
If you want to learn more about kinks or sexual fantasies and its affect on the brain and how ppl use these things to cope, go consult with a specialist that spent years researching these topics and have experience with working with these individuals.
These ppl don't care that their misinformation is ruining a lot of ppl's lives, not just the ones involved bcuz it's all about clout - not about helping ppl.
Whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of these art commentary channels (or drama channels in general) are manipulative gaslighters. They have a "Just trust me, bro." mentality.
They hate to be corrected or criticized, so they try to label ppl as "abuse/pedo apologists" to discourage them from doing either of these or try to make ppl feel bad for doubting their perspective.
"I think that blah blah is bad and blah blah is the reason that blah blah happens and if you disagree with me, then you must be a blah blah blah."
Even if a piece of media is exploitative, that concern should always immediately be taken to the AUTHORITIES.
If so-called "predator catchers" or whatever never wants to get authorities involved or consult with professionals about an alleged serious issue, that means they're APART of that issue.The only art commentary channel that I know of that reported a pedophile artist in a beneficial, none ass-backwards way was LemiaCrescent.
A how-to-draw YT artist got caught with CSAM. She reported his channel to Youtube but, like always, Youtube didn't do shit.
So what did she do? She worked with 3 police officers to help remove his channel from Youtube, and at the time, he was sentenced to 10 years.
She didn't give his @ or channel name in her video bcuz, common sense, that would lead ppl TO his channel and would HELP HIM more than it would hurt him.
Hate engagement is STILL engagement.
A lot of engagement = more views, more ad revenue, more promotions, and more kids would've been recommended his channel.
But then y'all wonder why a lot of bigoted and predatory influencers still have platforms.
The less ppl know of his existence, the better. She didn't even include his art in her video.
She wasn't "protecting" him and his content - she was protecting kids FROM him and his content.
And she had to disable her comments bcuz ppl were threatening to give away the man's @, despite her already explaining why that would be a bad idea.Being an adult and encouraging kids to intrude on 18+ pages to debate on content that's not for them, purposefully reposting 18+ art KNOWING you have kids following you/aiming for it to reach kids, being in possession of a CHILD'S NSFW art, claiming an image is illegal YET saving/sharing it, saving pictures of REAL children to your device to compare them to lolisho/age-play material to "own" lolishocons/pro-ships is MUCH CLOSER to child groomer behavior than liking lolisho or having an -18 fictional crush.
Pedophilia is always suddenly "a very serious accusation that you shouldn't throw around mindlessly" when all the loud anti-lolishos get caught doing and/or saying pedo-ish things.
Am I saying that lolishocons CAN'T be pedophiles? No!
Predators existed long before lolisho manga was even a thing.
VICE platformed an actual child abuser that abused kids for 24+ years to argue against the existence of loli material, and even the sick mf himself admitted to abusing kids long before he even discovered loli manga.
And again, there are kids that are lolishocons. So if you're at the point where you're even accusing little kids of being pedophiles, then that just tells me all I need to know.
Are they pedophiles bcuz of lolisho art? Also no. It's much deeper than that.
Just bcuz 5 out of 1000 lolicons turned out to be actual pedophiles doesn't automatically mean loli is bad.
That's the same as arguing that violent video games influences violence. It's the person - not the media.
The same group of vanillas that's banning books, porn, and violent video games to "protect kids" and "end terrorism" are the same vanillas endorsing wars, funding genocides, and are registered sex offenders.
The gag is that ppl that join in on moral panics and pushes censorship policies "to better society" are always NEVER good ppl themselves.
They don't want to create or enforce laws and practices that'll actually take care of society's problems bcuz THEY ARE the problems.
Ppl that are quick to accuse ppl of being pedophiles and groomers almost always turns out to be one themselves.
Sounds like you want some company cuz why else are you trying to coerce ppl into being attracted to kids over cartoons?
That's prolly why a lot of y'all choose to devote your time to crying over fiction online instead of doing real abuse prevention - cuz that would mean having to turn yourself in.
Just say you dislike things like lolisho, age-gap, and/or CNC in porn bcuz it makes you uncomfortable instead of spreading this fallacy that dark fiction and kinks are the cause of irl abuse and the reason why abuse victims stay in abusive relationships.
Not only is this victim-blaiming by insinuating that victims wants to be abused, gaslighting victims into thinking they did something wrong to get in that situation, and infantilizing victims as "frail, weak-minded individuals that don't understand what they're consuming and couldn't recognize the signs", you're also implying that predators can be manipulated or pressured into abusing.
You're taking the blame away from predators and making excuses for them.
"Abuse wouldn't be an issue anymore if ppl would stop reading weird books and taking part in weird fetishes."
Yea, bcuz abuse is such a minor inconvenience that's easily avoidable. Nothing like abusers/apologists on the internet projecting their guilt by accusing other ppl of being guilty of the same shit and avoiding accountability by downplaying the severity and complexity of abuse.
I guess when you point the finger, three more really does point back at you, huh?Most lolishocons ARE CSA victims and even THEY will tell you that you shouldn't trust any and every lolishocon.
And bcuz most of them are CSA victims, ofc they wouldn't want pedophiles in their community.
Are y'all aware how DANGEROUS this "Th-this can't be true! There's no signs in their work!" or "They can't be a pedophile! They're not even a lolicon!" mindset is?!
Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, to my knowledge, has LITTLE TO NO loli characters in his works, yet he's still a pedophile.
Again, the pedophile artist Lemiacrescent talked of MOSTLY made/engaged with SFW artworks.
There was a anti-proship gore artist that was, not only mutuals with a lot of kids, but was even following one of the kids' NSFW account.
There was a Twitter user on their "Fictional or not, it's wrong to sexualize kids" bs WHILE matching pfps with a 13 y.o.
Matching pfps is something that usually romantic partners do online.
And their friendship apparently wasn't innocent (or wouldn't be for long) bcuz that person IMMEDIATELY deleted their account when they got called out for it.
Actual predatory behavior that goes unchecked bcuz y'all are too preoccupied with arguing on whether a ship is incest or not instead of looking out for real predators.
At this point, pedos might as well have "I'm a proud MAP but proshitters DNI" in their bio bcuz apparently keeping predators out of the community isn't the priority here.
You're sending a message to kids that if they do come across ACTUAL CSAM, that they should redistribute it online rather than report it (and this HAS happened).
You're teaching kids to interact with pedophiles and groomers online instead of blocking/reporting them.
You're sending a message to kids that as long as a person isn't a lolicon or "proship" that they can't be a pedophile, which is MUCH MORE dangerous than liking loli art.
I've deadass seen a child argue that he would rather be an ACTUAL CHILD MOLESTER than to be a lolicon.
If these fandom kids are already harassing/doxxing random strangers on the internet and even going as far as assaulting their classmates that they think is a proshipper, then what do you think they're gonna do when they become adults?
You can hate loli shit and STILL be a child predator; too many of y'all have already proved that!
Perpetrators don't look or act a "certain" way; ANYONE can be one! There won't always be "clear signs".
If they're not attracted to real kids, then they're just not attracted to kids. Why are y'all wishing more pedophiles and predators into the world?
Pedophile or not, I rather they project their fantasies on lil anime lolis than to harm real kids.
We're at the point where pedos are making deepfakes out of real kids photos. Ppl choosing to stick to bobble-headed ass anime lolishos instead is a BLESSING compared to that cuz at least you know they're fake.
Illegal or not, it's STILL not the same as real kids being hurt and never will be.
Those dolls in Japan? I fuckin hate em! But I rather those dolls than real kids.
Would you rather them NOT have an outlet to keep from harming real kids?
Defending lolisho =/= liking loli shit.
It's not that ppl that defends this type of art necessarily likes it, they just can differentiate a real, urgent issue from a fake one.
If you read, "Classifying/reporting any and everything as CSE/CSAM and accusing any and everyone of pedophilia is making it HARDER for REAL predators to get caught, for REAL victims to get help, and for images/videos of REAL kids being abused and exploited taken off the internet." as simply "defending loli" then you don't care about kids.
Criminalizing any and all pedophiles doesn't help victims either cuz not all pedophiles are child molesters.
If they haven't harmed anyone, then it's not urgent and nothing can be done.
That's just wasting already limited time and resources that could've went on catching pedos that actually DID harm a child.
Not all pedophiles abuse kids and you don't have to be a pedophile to abuse kids.
I guess you would think that calling out hyperbole is "being nice" to predators when you prioritize shaming and pedo-hunting for sport and clout over the wellbeing of kids and victims.
"We know that loli art isn't as bad as CP---"
Your continuous usage of "CP" rather than CSE/AM shows me how "passionate" you are about protecting kids.
If you cared about kids, you would not be constantly calling something CSAM if you KNOW that it is not. Cuz that means you're aware of how serious and urgent that claim is.
How come CSE/AM is illegal, but loli art is not?
That must mean that a lot of licensed professionals have ALREADY looked into these drawings and deduced that it's not enough to prove that a person is a danger, and agreed that it's not urgent and will just make it harder for them to get rid of real CSAM.
The only time a drawing would be considered CSAM is if the drawing is hyperrealistic to the point it actually looks like a real child, bcuz that means the person referenced an actual child.
Again, if it was that simple, something would have BEEN done about it.
If lolisho/age-gap art was to be made illegal, that would also put kids and abuse survivors that cope with their trauma through trauma art at risk of being penalized.
Y'all talk as if pedophilia/CSAM isn't illegal in Japan.
Where's your proof that every pedophile in Japan is a lolicon/interacted with loli media at some point?
Did you actually do some deep, extensive research into all of this, or are you just gonna pin all of Japan's pedo problem on lolishocon and call it a day?
Bringing up the fact that Japan has a pedo problem is not helping cuz EVERY country has a pedo problem - including the countries that ALREADY banned this type of art.
How can you explain the ongoing CSA cases in places that BANNED loli art/18+ works depicting underaged characters?!
Elaborate on the percentage of CSA cases BEFORE and AFTER these bans.
Did it reduce cases of CSA in these places? Or did the cases increase? Did it remain the same?
How many cases has been reported compared to those that haven't been?
Did the professionals in these places actually do a deep dive into this art and the psychology of those that create/consume it?
Did they ban this art bcuz it REALLY IS harmful to kids, or did they just ban it to sweep the existence of pedophilia under the rug?
The fact that pedophilia is still a problem in these countries shows that it has nothing to do with the media, but everything to do with predators.
"So are you saying there's nothing wrong with ppl making loli art of real kids?!"
An inappropriate drawing of a REAL child is not “loli art” - that’s actual CSEM and the fact that you're calling it "loli art" says more about YOU than us.
If we're refusing to refer to fictional characters as "kids", then why would we refer to ACTUAL CSAM as "loli art"?!
If you come across a pedo that's sharing CSAM, you suppose to report them!
If you refuse to report CSAM, then you're assisting in child endangerment by allowing the pedophile to get away with it.
Bullying pedophiles off the internet won't amount to shit bcuz the CSAM will STILL be in their possession.
A pedophile does not need internet access to hurt kids or to pass around CSAM!
Again, you SHOULD NOT be conflating loli art to CSAM and you SHOULD NEVER use lolisho to describe ANYTHING related to REAL KIDS.
Comparing kids (or anyone) and their experiences to that of fetish material and dolls is VERY disrespectful, insensitive, overall dehumanizing, and even pedophilic.
Lolishos are not children and children are ESPECIALLY not lolishos!Again, it'll be more beneficial to teach kids how to spot and avoid groomers so they can use it online AND offline so they'll be able to identify predators in ALL spaces, not just in lolicon and proship spaces.
Cuz, again, predators are more than likely roam in Y'ALLS little "safe space".
How is a child going to easily identify a "proshipper" or a lolicon IRL?
So you expect ppl to go around asking, "Are you a proshipper? Do you think lolisho is okay?"
Do y'all realize how fucking WEIRD that would be, especially considering that most ppl (even pedos) don't even know what any of that shit is?!
Y'all are too immature, self-centered, and chronically online to be anywhere near discussions on serious/urgent matters such as abuse and pedophilia.
Bcuz y'all treat the subject like it's some petty fandom drama that you can just simply give an opinion on and walk away from; this is serious shit that ppl actually go through.
I see a whole lot of anti-pedo talk online, but I don't see nearly as much anti-pedo work being done offline.
Are you joining nonprofits, petitioning, consulting with specialists, donating to charities, volunteering at shelters, etc.?
Or are you only anti-abuse/violence online?
Activism is not about moral standings or validation - it's about contributing to causes that can ACTUALLY help ppl.

"But this art can be used to groom kids and kids would think it's normal to date an adult--"
Hence why NSFW of any kind is NOT for kids! Not my fault, not my problem, and I'm not obligated to do shit about it.
"18+ No Minors" is an invitation for kids to be on my pages?! Or an invitation to predators to groom kids with it?!
Y'all act as if I had put my art in someone's hand and said, "Hey! Show this to kids and teach them that it's normal!"
And even if I was to do that, I still can't make anyone groom kids. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.
I'm a firm believer that kids should be banned from social media.
No one on the internet is responsible for anybody's child - that's the parent's job.
You're suppose to be discouraging kids from interacting with ANY and ALL NSFW works, not just works depicting rape, lolisho, or age-gap!
You're suppose to be discouraging kids from going into adult spaces, not demanding adult creators to sanitize our work/pages or to only post behind paywalls cuz "kids might see it" or cuz "groomers might use it to groom kids".
And what's the point of us setting up all these precautions when YOU mfs keep pulling our shit from our pages without our consent, snatching off the tags, and reposting it everywhere for kids to see anyway?
No one has a moral obligation to babysit random ppl's kids on the internet.
If a child come across my content and CONTINUES to lurk on my pages, then guess what? They WANT to be there!
Kids LIE about their age to get into adult spaces and that behavior is impossible to police.
Kids being easily influenced by fiction and other things they hear and see on the internet is the result of bad parenting and teachers not doing their job.
The internet isn't safe for kids bcuz it was NEVER meant for kids to begin with, and it will never be safe for kids.
Adult creators are not liable for the actions of irresponsible kids and perpetrators.
We are not responsible for internal issues that ppl would have REGARDLESS of if our shit existed.
Harsh, but the truth usually is!
Predators will use ANYTHING to groom ppl.
Reminder: Y'all are the exact same ppl that actively search for this "grooming material", reposting it, AND tell ppl where you found it.
By that logic, you're also contributing to the spread of "grooming material". How come this is never a concern then?
Kids aren't the only group of ppl that can be groomed; adults can get groomed, too! Kids sexually assault other kids!
Not all victims are manipulated into their abuse!
Do you TRULY believe predators wouldn't prey on people if dark/weird fiction didn't exist?!
Okay, so if loli art was to be banned right now, what do you think a child groomer would do?
They'll just find SOMETHING ELSE to groom kids with!
Wanna know what else predators use to groom ppl? Religion. Work. Issues at home. The list goes on.
It's also a known fact that predators target ppl that society deems "undesirable" or "deviant" bcuz they know their actions will go unchecked AND as a way to gain trust to continue their abuse.
One example being all of this harassment, defamation, and mis/disinformation going on in art/fandom spaces.
Predators are everywhere!
Predators are ALWAYS searching for different methods and tools to harm ppl! It's inevitable!
Predators are manipulators that can turn any and everything into a weapon! They're dangerous with and without tools!
Despite Nirvana's "Polly" song being clearly anti-rape, that didn't stop two rapists from assaulting a girl while singing the song.
Predators are AWARE that what they're doing is wrong; THEY DON'T CARE!
That is beyond our control!
Just like I'm sure y'all don't want y'alls little religion defined by how others unjustly uses it.
No doubt they're doing the exact same shit with non-fiction and ppl sharing their stories.
Soon you'll be protesting against ppl writing about their real-life experiences overall.
Y'all hold any and everybody accountable for abuse except the abusers themselves.The banning of loli/shota, age-play, and the depiction of underage sex, CSA/age-gap, and rape in fiction isn't going to stop pedophiles from being attracted to kids, it's not going to stop predators from looking for victims and exploring other different ways to take advantage of them, and it's not going to stop abusers from abusing their victims.
If a person wants to hurt you, then they're gonna find some way to hurt you!
If a person wants to take advantage of you, then they're going to find some way to take advantage of you!
Creeps will be creeps no matter what! That's just the cold, hard honest truth.
Abuse is a CONSCIOUS choice. Predators that uses porn to groom kids were ALREADY child groomers.
Stop blaming the tools and HOLD THE PREDATORS ACCOUNTABLE!Policing what ppl post online is impossible and if it's not illegal, nothing can be done about it.
No matter how immoral or offensive, art is not illegal, meaning that professionals can't do ANYTHING about it.
Encouraging kids to stay away from NSFW spaces, sending them sources on how to spot and avoid groomers, teaching them how to curate their spaces, and urging parents/guardians to monitor their kids' internet usage would be much more effective than sitting on your ass all day whining about what type of art ppl make and post online.
That's like slapping a bandaid over a deep gash - it won't make a difference! Abusers don't just stop abusing!Y'all argue that this art "is harmful to sexual abuse victims" while disregarding the fact that often times ppl that make this art ARE SA victims.
Nabokov was a CSA victim. Korn was a CSA victim.
Survivors often make art depicting these things cuz it's our way of confronting and dealing with our trauma.
We've already been through these things, so of course we're going to talk about these things in some way.
It's hardly ever predators making this art and unless you have genuine proof that they're a predator, you can't surmise who it was made by or for. You don't know wtf ppl could be going through outside of the internet.
If we want to post this art that could reach and help other survivors who might not have the ability to express their trauma and to reduce the shame that a lot of us have for what wasn't our fault, then we have every right to do so.
Why do you have a problem with survivors monetizing our trauma to support OURSELVES and other survivors?
"You shouldn't be sharing your trauma art. It's only meant to be seen by your therapist---"
Again, unless you're a licensed professional giving advice to your own client, you are not qualified to be giving unsolicited advice to anybody.
If that person's own therapist doesn't have a problem with them sharing their trauma art online, then you shouldn't either.
Is YOUR therapist aware that you're on the internet abusing medical language and telling survivors how and how not to cope with their trauma?
Therapy suppose to ease you into the darkest places in your mind you are afraid to dwell on to help you learn to both accept and cope with these feelings and pass experiences to keep you from hurting yourself or others.
Professionals encourage creative therapy like drawing and writing things out bcuz it serves as a healthy outlet for feelings their client can’t express or don’t feel comfortable expressing openly or verbally.
Turning trauma into fiction helps us to separate ourselves from the trauma by making ourselves into an observer of a traumatic event rather than the one experiencing it. It gives us control over what's happening in the fictional scenario.
Yes, some survivors use fiction to turn a traumatic experience into an arousing one cuz now that we created something of our own volition that we can control, we can consent to whatever happens.
You would know this if you actually cared about the abused and did some research.
If a therapist tells their client to stop drawing and writing for any reason, then they’re far too close-minded to be a therapist and could even get fired or have their license revoked.
And even if a therapist was uncomfortable with their clients art, they'd just simply appoint them to another professional.
Therapists have no control of what their clients do outside of their sessions and ppl’s reactions to their client’s creative work is the least of their concerns bcuz everyone is responsible for their own discomfort.
If you're not gonna pay for anyone's therapy or help make therapy more accessible, then sit down and stfu.
At the end of the day, we are human, we are imperfect, and we don't owe you shit!
How ppl react to our art is not our problem. We don't deserve to our experiences or our stories (fictional or real) buried just bcuz you're uncomfortable and don't know how to handle it.
Y'all are never quick to commit to things that can efficiently get survivors the help we need and to get our abusers dealt with, but y'all sure are quick to tell us what and what not to do with our own trauma.
And if you think ppl should have a "pass" to create/share this type of art, you still don't care about survivors.
You're creating an online culture of backing survivors into a corner and pressuring us into reopening old wounds to confirm our victimhood cuz you wanna play cop for some clout. Survivor or not, that is information that you're not entitled to!
You delude yourself into thinking you're doing us some type of favor, but in reality you're just dismissing our experiences.
I see we're at a point in time where abusers are given a chance to obtain rights and victims get blamed instead.
Who the fuck are you to decide who is or isn't a "real" abuse survivor?!
It's always "protect and support abuse/trauma victims" until we don't fit y'alls perfect little narrative and expectations.
We're either not "broken" enough or "normal" enough for you so you deem us as the "wrong" type of victims, dismiss our traumas and invalidate our experiences, and calling us "just as gross" as our abusers - all over some dumb ass art and ships.
You are apart of the problem."I AM a CSA victim and I don't appreciate y'all fetishizing my trauma---"
And as a CSA survivor myself, I don't appreciate you weaponizing your trauma to police what others draw/write and how other abuse victims cope with our own trauma.
My art has NOTHING to do with your trauma.
You are not the only person in the world with negative experiences. Welcome to planet earth - decenter yourself.
Your experience and personal feelings as an abuse victim is not universal; everyone copes differently and you don't speak for all of us.
Just bcuz YOU consent to mfs weaponizing you and your trauma and belittling your experience by comparing it to that of inanimate objects doesn't mean I have to.
You're giving your own abuser a slap on the wrist to rope in and blame a random artist that doesn't even know you bcuz you don't want to accept that predators are cruel mfs for no reason.
Did the artist consent to your abuser using their art? Were they even aware of this situation to begin with?
Cuz if not, then it's not their fault or their problem and you shouldn't expect them to do anything about it.
Why are you going around trying to report some stranger for your abuse rather than your actual abuser?
Why are you allowing your abuser to get away with their actions by distracting everyone with the art?
At this point, you just have Stockholm Syndrome.
Authorities can't do shit about or with a random cartoon drawing from some random artist that had no part in your abuse.
If you have a sour outlook on lolisho art, age-gap, or CNC related media bcuz it was used to groom you or reminds you of your own experience then that's understandable! That's not the problem.
However, OTHER victims processes and cope with their trauma through this type of art. It's not an invalid way to cope just bcuz you don't cope this way.
I can sympathize with you and still disagree with you cuz that doesn't make you any less wrong, nor should you use being a victim as some sort of leverage in an argument, an excuse to avoid accountability/criticism, or to make what other ppl do with their time and/or their own trauma your business.
You can be an abuse/trauma victim and still be a shitty person. This is not a fucking competition.
Get off the internet and get a therapist if random ppl's art offends you so bad to the point you think it somehow has anything to do with you, personally.
You are apart of the problem.“I’m so tired of people complaining about ‘antis’ then you actually look at what ‘antis’ are saying and it’s complaints about racism and ableism.”
Not y’all deliberately misinterpreting anti/proship discourse as discussions of bigotry when 98.9% of the discourse is about sexual deviancy IN FICTION, kids endangering themselves by invading adult spaces, and serious accusations.
Yes, bigotry IS an issue in fandoms, but that's not what this moral purity bullshit is about.
Okay, where are y’all when antis use someone being proship as an excuse to BE racist, ableist, or phobic, etc.?
Where are y’all when antis are WEAPONIZING racism (the person that tweeted this statement) when it comes to proships/artists that make art that they don’t like?
Where were y'all when the organizers of that Flowers in the Attic zine didn't allow incest/proshippers BUT was okay with art with racist depictions?
There was a big artist that got exposed for being PRO-COP and antis thought it would be a good opportunity to go, “This is disgusting! They also aged up minors and started shipping them with actual adults from the show, too!”
Deflecting the convo from said artist supporting REAL terrorists to about some shipping bullshit.
Does it look like I give a flying fuck that a Nazi-apologist ships DekuMight?
Sexualizing Nezuko is not the same as drawing racewashed and/or racist caricatures of Nessa.
One was drawn simply bcuz the artist likes the character/design regardless of her canon age, while the other was just racist rage-bait that were products of ALREADY racist ppl.
Again, I am well aware that there are bigoted "proships”.
I blocked so many damn lolicons that were spewing racist/TERF rhetoric.
Even if a problematic artist DOES turn out to be problematic, it's not cuz of the art they're into and you should be MORE focused on their actions that can hurt REAL PPL, NOT their funk-ass art.
Is that dark artist really a bigot or a predator, or are you just accusing them of being so bcuz they're into shit you don't like?
So you never cared to call this artist out on their alleged anti-black behavior UNTIL you found out they were into freak shit?!
Wanna know what's funny about that "racism and ableism" statement?
1. It was a reply to a post linked to OP's article that talks about, and I quote, "The rise of the anti-fan, fandom purity culture, and how shipping — you know, that thing you do naturally, like breathing — became a weaponized tool of the culture war." (which I linked below)
2. The person was white.
You're just screaming your head off at shit that you think is offensive and prolly never supported any marginalized creator in your life.
The way y'all ignore constructive criticism/avoid accountability by pulling the minority card REEKS of insecurity.
Again, these terms are more than just buzzwords!
Save em for when it ACTUALLY applies or when it's actually relevant to the conversation - not bcuz you got your little feelings hurt.
Of course you'd "win" all of your little online disputes when you're desperately painting all of your opponents as a threat just bcuz they have a different opinion from you; cuz that's easier than accepting that your opinion is nothing more than a statement that can be debated and disproven.
Of course accountability feels like an attack when you don't wanna admit to harming others.
Being a minority does not make you immune to criticism, nor does it give you the grounds to be a boundary-crossing asshole.
That "racist, white incel" made a valid point - having this type of conversation over fanfics and ships is very fucking stupid and a waste of time that you could be putting into doing REAL activism. And it's a damn shame that a "racist white incel" had to tell you that!
Y'alls little fandom rules and ideologies is ALWAYS, ironically, inconveniencing the marginalized bcuz y'all don't know (or care) what to protect or what to be pissed at.

If you TRULY believe there's a group of ppl on the internet that are endangering ppl's safety, you would be fighting to get THE LAW involved.
If you TRULY cared about kids and their safety, you would be doing everything you can, LEGALLY, to ensure they're safe WITHOUT getting kids involved.
You would be dedicating your time to doing REAL abuse prevention work and not crying over some dumbass ships and art that no one is forcing you to interact with.
But y'all don't wanna do that bcuz that requires ACTUAL effort.
Again, there's a BIGASS difference between "Ew, block." and "This person is in danger, call the cops!!"
FYI, bullying and harassing predators isn't gonna stop them from harming kids. If anything, you might just be encouraging them.
Why are y'all making lame-ass memes/jokes about something that YOU claim is endangering instead of actually trying to do something about it?!
Cuz if you did you wouldn't be annoyed - you would be angry.
So you're showing me that even YOU don't see these things on the same level as real problems, yet continue to irresponsibly conflate the two.
Claiming that something is dangerous then turning around and describing it as simply "weird" and "gross" is downplaying the severity of said "dangerous" thing, which means that you're either going about this with your personal feelings rather than evidence and/or you don't see pedophilia as a problem to begin with.I DO NOT claim to be a professional and even though I'm preaching literal COMMON SENSE, I rather you hear it from LICENSED professionals, ppl that actually knows what they're talking about, than me or any mf that only has a PhD in online discourse.
I get my research on anything pertaining to psychology from legit sources (.orgs and .govs and if it's .coms or .infos, I make sure it's citing professional sources that's obtainable), licensed books, and actual licensed professionals, but you still won't catch me out here diagnosing ppl or using medical language cuz I know that I'm not qualified to do that.
I guarantee you that most of the shit y'all preach in fandom spaces ain't even nowhere IN a psychology book.
Y'all be lookin real fuckin goofy listening to 15 y.o Tiktokers and 1st year psych student that's barely passing their classes over 30+ y.o professionals with YEARS of experience.
Professionals don't get their experiences and knowledge just from years of schooling, they also get it from, again, dealing with REAL psychopaths and criminals.
And professionals are experienced enough to know that not everyone that seeks them out wants to improve themselves as a person, but to learn how to be a more proficient abuser.
You think you know much more about criminal minds than a professional does cuz you might be an aspiring criminal yourself.
If you can make a 4+ hour video throwing a hissy fit over some dude's Sims 4 fanfic, then you can dedicate 4+ hours on the internet researching professional resources, IF you actually give a damn about ppl's safety.
Then you wouldn't have to worry about what ppl draw and write about cuz a lot of issues would be resolved by now; yet everything's still going to shit.
Y'all don't want these problems to be solved. Y'all aren't searching for solutions - y'all are searching for arguments for your little online clout.
Curb your pedo fetish and think about the victims for once. We don't need your weird ass superiority complex.
We don't need your kink-shaming/guilt projection. We don't need you reposting porn.
We don't need you policing or scapegoating artists.
We don't need this dumbass ant/proship online moral purity discourse.
We don't need your lil revenge fantasies of enacting violence on predators or ppl you think are predators.
You're only doing so to distract from YOUR OWN harmful behaviors and giving YOURSELF an outlet while not doing a damn thing for survivors.
Of course vengeance sounds like a great and simple solution to you when you've never been groomed, especially by a family member, a close friend, or an authoritative figure.
I want these bastards to be brought to justice, too, but a death penalty is just going to give abusers more leverage to silence their victims.
Not to mention how many innocent ppl will be framed, thus will make it harder for real predators to get caught.
What good is a death penalty gonna do? The damage has already been done!
What good is "safe" internet doing for kids that are trapped in abusive households? What good is "safe" internet doing for kids being abused in schools and churches? What good is "safe" internet doing for homeless kids?
We need more access to healthcare, safe housing, better sex - ed, a fair justice system, etc.- things that can ACTUALLY help kids and survivors and help to prevent abuse/violence!I've yet to see any anti-proship pages linking professional sources that backs their claims, let alone ANY professional sources. Not one.
If you can't even provide well-researched sources (.orgs,.govs, and .infos with citations ONLY) and consult with at least 5+ different LICENSED therapists/psychologists and even a lawyer or two, then stfu.
And the reason you should always consult with more than 1 or 2 professionals is cuz, even tho most professionals are in agreement with a lot of things, all professionals have THEIR OWN opinion on certain topics and THEIR OWN ways of helping their patients.
A professional won't give advice to a patient that's not theirs! What may work for THEIR patient may not work for someone else!
Your therapist's advice was intended for YOU specifically - not for everybody else.
It's all "Get therapy." wit you mfs till you realize the science actually doesn't agree with you.
Solve the problems in your own little life before trying to tell other ppl how to solve theirs.Shipping discourse has always been a thing in fandom, but y'all made the whole proship/anti-ship bullshit out to be WAAAY more than what it needs to be.
Being uncomfortable with certain shit doesn't make you an anti, and having sense enough to know that fiction =/= reality 100% and being anti-harassment (especially over fiction) isn't a "proship/profic" thing, but common-fuckin-sense.
Obviously, you don't have to pick a damn side!
The problem is that, again, y'all can't differentiate a real problem from an imaginary one.
Now y'all got newly-turned 18 y.os believing they're automatically a pedophile if they still have a crush on a -18 character.
You ain't do shit but made everything a bigger shit-show than what it already was.If it's something that's just merely weird and gross, block/mute it and go.
If a person has really harmed someone and/or making advances on a REAL child, report them.
If it's real CSE/CSAM, report it. That's all you gotta do.
The faster y'all learn that there's no real easy, straightforward way to tell whether a person is a threat or not, the better things will be.
If that's too difficult for you to do, then leave it to the professionals and those that can cuz you're not responsible or reliable enough to effectively protect kids or survivors, in fandom spaces OR irl.
You don't know what you're doing and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Receipts, Sources, and Helplines

• National Resources for Sexual Assault Survivors and their Loved Ones
• Amdt1.7.5.12 Child Pornography
• The Stages of Online Grooming: Inside the Mind of a Predator
• Child Molesters: A Behavioral Analysis
• Thousands of CSAM can go undetected due to false reports
• 'Kids Online Safety Act' is a Trojan horse for Digital Censorship
• INHOPE members should not conflate art with abuse images
• Prostasia Foundation
• We Tell Ourselves Stories in Order to Live
• HOW WRITING FICTION HELPS ME—AND MAYBE YOU—DEAL WITH PAST TRAUMA
• The Cult Structure of the American anti
• Masturbation abstinence is popular online. And doctors and therapists are worried
• Are any anecdote in "Your Brain on Porn"
• Psychological Studies on Kinks
• Taboo Fantasies; Real Harm Reduction
• Clip of Netflix's Sex Explained Ep.1 "Sexual Fantasies"
• Thread of Articles and Research on Taboo Sexual Fantasies
• American Yakuza Terms You Should Know as an Easterner
• Must-know for Japanese fandom
• Tagame-sensei can't stand y'all, either lol
• Original Meanings to Shipping Terms and How They're Used
• The Nazis' inventory of 'degenerate art'
• Comment | US digital age verification laws are threatening artists’ freedom of expression
• Puritanism took over online fandom — and then came for the rest of the internet
• Why Can’t We Stop Talking About the Anti-Porn ‘Oppenheimer’ Lady?
• TAKE IT DOWN ACT
• THE PURITANICAL EYE: HYPER-MEDIATION, SEX ON FILM, AND THE DISAVOWAL OF DESIRE
• Fandom is more about "hot takes" than having fun smh
• A Former Anti's Story
• Examples of Antis Being Predators/Abuse Apologists
• "Anti-Pedo" Twitter Artist Admits to Being Just That 1(?)
• Account Call-Out Post Results in someone getting doxxed
• More about the Amphibia/Phibby Burner discourse
• Phibby Burner reveling in praises from minors. Totally NOT weird

My Rant on Various Queer Discourse (mainly queer art discourse)

• Home

Fandom is a place where leftists constantly talk about supporting marginalized groups, but spends more time focusing on minute things that either merely annoys them or meddles in the business of random online strangers and calling it "activism" instead of focusing on or contributing to things that requires time and effort that'll ensure long-term societal improvement.“I’m getting tired of seeing straight women fetishizing MLM.”First of all, how do you know these ppl are “women” and how do you know they’re “straight”??!
So you just went on to ALL these pages just to see whether these ppl are women or if they’re straight?
You’re either a stalker or you’re making shit up.
Y’all are more annoying than these mythical straight girls y’all love so much.
Y’all talking as if most of us didn’t identify as cishet at one point and that most of us discovered that we’re not cis/het through queer art.
No one was born woke - everyone had to grow and LEARN about lifestyles outside of the social norm. And apparently a lot of y'all haven't unlearned y'alls Christian conservatism.
“Well I didn’t have to consume queer art to realize I’m queer—“
Good for you! You want a medal, you special wittle baby?
The term “fetishization” and its meaning differs depending on the context and the situation.
A woman, straight or not, being more interested in MLM pairings and stories isn’t automatically “fetishization”. Same with men creating/consuming WLW.
Even if said gay media is pornographic. The entire point of porn is to fetishize/sexualize.
Go learn what these terms actually mean before using it.
No one is denying that gay fetishism is a thing.
When us responsible, not chronically-online gays say we don’t want to be fetishized, we meant we don’t want over-attachment with little to no understanding while simultaneously oppressing us with violence and disenfranchisement; NOT Samantha and Bobby creating/consuming queer media without proving they have some sort of right to.
If you're gonna make what type of holes ppl have and what they do with it your business, then at least have the common courtesy to pay up first.
A person being more interested in male-centered works that includes, but not limited to BL is NOT automatically fetishism. They prolly relate with gay media in a way that's none of our damn business.
Don't get it? That's fine - some things just aren't meant for you to get.
If it’s not concerning REAL ppl and their safety, then it’s not fetishism.
You are not entitled to anyone's gender/sexual identity, regardless of if they're a cishet or not.Now things that I would consider actual fetishization when it comes to queer art is:1. Getting pissed when a WLW artist draws MLM for once/when a MLM artist draws WLW for once
2. Claim that it’s “fetishization” when someone doesn’t portray queer characters/relationships the way YOU want them portrayed.
3. An actual bigot portraying gays/trans ppl in stereotypical ways or as villains as a means of evoking violence and misinformation.“Y’all are fujoshis. Y’all literally fetishise gay men!”Did y’all even bother to do your research to know what a fujoshi even is?A fujoshi is just a woman that reads BL. That’s it.
Fujoshis/himedanshis and gay fetishizers are two different types of ppl, just like otakus and weaboos are two different types of ppl.For the more in-depth, extensive meaning, colonizer, fujoshi is a RECLAIMED SLUR that meant “rotten girl” bcuz it was created by homophobic/misogynistic Japanese men that was disgusted by these women shipping STRAIGHT male power fantasy characters.
If they saw women engaging in anything that they saw as "inferior", they deemed them “unsuitable for marriage".
Most of these women were either closeted/questioning WLW, agender/genderfluid, or even trans men.
How do you know the gender/sexual identity of every single BL author if a good deal of them hid their identities behind pen names and/or was closeted/questioning?
Oh yea - you don't. You're just making shit up.
Fujoshi/fudanshi has been reclaimed in the East and the West and is a commonly used term in the Japanese LGBT+ community.
I’ve yet to meet a straight fujoshi and, again, if there are some - who fucking cares?!
A straight person consuming gay media or even watching gay porn is not killing you, I promise. If that was the case, you would've been dead.
Romance was once perceived as a “girly thing”, which is where the misconception of “BL is made by women for women.” came from. The same was even said about yuri/GL.
Straight women don't own the fujoshi label and they damn sure don't own BL. They never did and they never will.
Straight women ain’t do shit but read/watched it like everybody else did.
And even if some BL authors were straight women, that doesn't mean they all were straight women or wrote specifically for straight women. These ppl simply had a creative vision that they wanted to publish and the target audience was whoever tf wanted to read it.
Y'all give straight ppl too much credit for shit they had no part in.
You don’t necessarily have to claim the label (cuz I don't myself), but if you’re someone that’s driven to mostly MLM content, you’re still technically a fujoshi/fudanshi/fujin.
Y'all got a straight woman fetish or somethin'? Cuz the only straight girlie in the room is the one you made up in your head.
Fujoshis read geikomi and yuri works, too.
In fact, some geikomi works were made by WOMEN. Some BL authors have also written GL titles. One of the most famous BL authors in China is a man.
If you're gonna call yourself going off at the mouth about certain shit, AT LEAST actually know what the fuck you're talking about.
At least have common sense enough to do your own extensive research on terms and practices from other cultures that’s not your own instead of listening to xenophobic-ass mfs that never even stepped foot in Japan (assuming that you're not a TERF).
The way y'all just mindlessly parrot other ppl's talking points baffle me. Think for yourself for once.
There's more to Japanese culture and history than just anime and manga.Yes, it’s true that MLMs are shunned in publishing and have their stories taken from them.
Yes, in the west, MLMs don’t get a lot of representation. Yes, these things do happen and it does suck, however, that’s not women’s fault - it’s the homophobia. “Just bcuz a guy likes yuri doesn’t mean he wants you to do yuri stuff.” Yet, this is such a hard concept to grasp when it comes to women?
So when we all found out (except for those of us that already knew) that the creator of Dorohedoro was a woman, we ALL agreed that it was misogyny, right?
We all agreed that trying to guess ppl’s gender/sexual identity by how and what they create/consume is fucking ignorant at best, right?
It’s no surprise that y’all got more beef with QUEER fujoshis than straight himedanshis cuz it's more about vilifying women than protesting against homophobia.
Just bcuz you’ve seen 1 or 2 middle/high school girls in the early 2000s shipping irl ppl (whom most likely either came out themselves and/or realized how cringe it was) doesn’t mean ALL of them did that shit.
Don't assume every fujoshi was seriously shipping their male associates just bcuz you and your friends did.
It's just a bunch of hyperbolic yapping on y'alls part.
Y’alls obsession wit teenage girls/young women and their fantasies is actually fuckin weird.
And if they actually ARE gay fetishists, I wouldn’t call them fujoshis or himedanshis cuz that’s not what those terms mean.
I call them what they are - gay fetishists. Homophobes.Ironic bigotry is STILL bigotry, regardless of who it’s coming from or directed towards.
Being misogynist towards a TERF is still misogyny and misgendering a trans person you disagree with is still transphobia.
If you're comfortable with bigotry when it comes to another marginalized person having a different viewpoint from you, then you're comfortable with bigotry in general.
You're showing every marginalized person how you REALLY feel about our existence and that your "ally-ship" is nothing more than clout-chasing.
That's what separates leftists from liberals.
A leftist would simply say, "Fuck conservatives." and move on. Liberals SEARCHES for a reason to perpetuate bigoted ideologies on to conservatives cuz they think they can get away with it or that it's "not the same" even tho we still suffer from these narratives.
Caitlyn Jenner and Blair White being conservative doesn't make them immune or safe from transmisogyny.
Y'all have a bad habit of holding marginalized ppl to a high standard where we can't be wrong or make mistakes or else we "deserve" the bigotry we get.
Let marginalized ppl be wrong; no one should have to "earn" basic human rights!Another cold, ice hard fact y’all need to make peace with:
GATEKEEPING QUEER MEDIA ISN’T GOING TO STOP LGBT+ FETISHISTS FROM FETISHIZING US!
GATEKEEPING QUEER MEDIA ISN'T GOING TO STOP LGBT+PHOBIA

“BLs made by women tend to be fetishistic.”Again, define the “fetishizing” that’s going on. Okane ga Nai (No Money) was deemed one of the most stereotypical BLs ever made. And guess what? It was made by A MAN! There was a BL game about butlers that was, also, very stereotypical.
Guess what? MADE BY A MAN! So, in conclusion, for the 900th time, BLs made by women isn’t automatically “fetishistic” and not all BLs made by men are wholesome, relatable, cute and cuddly Uwu nonsense.
Okay and what if that “woman” isn’t actually a woman? What if that “woman” is actually a trans man? Now what? So only THEN you’ll deem their works “worthy enough” to exist?
Or are you gonna call them a "straight woman that's just living out their BL fantasies" like the transphobe that you are?
If you're crying about how BL authors make their male characters' assholes look like vaginas then I would love, love, LOVE to see your reaction to men with vaginas.
What are you insinuating women write like and what are you insinuating men "should" write like, huh? It's giving patriarchal values and toxic masculinity.
It's almost as if fictional characters are just objects that we can project our fantasies on and the whole point of porn is to be fetishistic.If you're LGBT+/ally and you come to find yourself becoming hostile towards effeminate men/masculine women you're not as progressive like you think you are and you have work to do.
There's a difference between not wanting femininity/masculinity for YOURSELF and just being a damn TERF.
Pretty fuckin sad that y’all can’t identify radfem/TERF terminology when you hear it - especially when you claim to be pro-trans.
Pick out any anti-fujoshi post and I bet you will find that 85% of the likes/rts are from TERFs.
And just bcuz someone is trans/non-binary does not mean that they CAN’T be a radfem/TERF.
Has Caitlyn Jenner and Blair White taught y'all nothing?!
All this systemic oppression and violence, erasure of gay art, passing of anti-gay/trans bills going on in societies that still very much hates us, the only thing y’all grown-ass mfs can think to cry about online is 14 year old girls slapping Ken dolls together, bi/pan lesbians, dykefags/faghags, and mfs wearing leather harnesses and puphoods to pride.
The healthcare system and your landlord is much more of a danger to you than any of these.
Nevermind gays and trans being denied jobs BCUZ of our orientation to the point a lot of us end up having to do danger sex work to survive but God forbid transsetters and fujoshis.
These barely-bare-minumum gay laws got y'all losing the plot. Hard.
I rather a straight fujo/hime ally than an exclusionist LGBT+ projecting homo/transphobia from within the community.
The world isn't accepting of LGBT+s enough for y'all to be having crash-outs over first-world problems like this. You're no better than a fascist.
I see that y'all don't care that terms like "porn addict", "degenerates", "deviant", "freaks/weirdos" all have Nazi origins and has been historically used against marginalized ppl to further stigmatize and oppress us just bcuz ppl don't fit your little narrative.
The ideologies y'all make up in these online communities "to protect the marginalized" is always inconveniencing the marginalized bcuz they're just Christo-fascist, conservative, gender-critical nonsense wrapped in a pride flag.
When you don't research into your history, you end up repeating it.Is BL fetishizing gay men, or are you just fetishizing geikomi/bara?
Cuz the same tropes y’all cry about that exists in BL, also, exists in geikomi.
Me thinks a lot of y’all actually don’t read ANY kind of BL and y’all are just using this discourse to be openly xenophobic, misogynist, and/or even LGBT+phobic cuz if you actually DID read a lot of geikomi OR BL:
1. You would know that yaoi and “bara” are both outdated terms.
"Bara” is not only outdated, but a slur that many geikomi authors have expressed a distaste for.
Yes, a lot of geikomi creators still do use the term ,however, it's not accepted by every geikomi artist due to it being a slur.
2. You would also know that My Brother’s Husband, the only “bara” y'all can name and fetishize, isn’t even a romance, which Tagame-sensei (the same "Uwu wholesome BL" mangaka y'all tried to cancel when y'all found out he's mainly a hardcore BDSM artist) stated himself.
A story that's focused on homosexuality doesn't automatically mean it's a romance.
Not only that, he himself said he written MBH in a way so that ANYONE can read it.
3. There are a lot of geikomis INSPIRED by BL, just as there’s a lot of BL that’s inspired by geikomi.
If you're not ready to learn that BL and geikomi authors are one in the same, then you're sure as hell not ready to learn that a lot of your precious shounen mangas like Berserk and Fist of the North Star wouldn't exist if not for their creators drawing inspiration from shoujo and BL. Girls manga and fujoshi influence is in everything!Yaoi/BL vs. Geikomi is, quite literally, only a Western debate cuz creators and fans of both are VERY supportive of each other, especially in the East.
Westerners doing what Westerners does best - tryna make something into an issue when there's no fuckin issue.
The whole fujoshi/BL thing is far more anticlimactic than what y'all made it out to be.
Queer ppl of all gender identities created/consume both - always have since the 70s when the genre took off.
If it’s a romance centered around gay men, then guess what? It’s BL!
If it’s a gay romance centered around girls, then guess what? It’s GL! WHO it’s written by is irrelevant.
“No gay man acts or dress like this ever. That's why Bara has the most accurate depiction of gay men.”
Why y'all lying??!
True enough, not all gay men are feminine. Counterpoint: not all gay men are bears, either.
There is no “requirement” to be a gay man besides being a gay man.
Again, your experience and attraction as a gay man, or what you think a gay man should be, is NOT universal.
It's not "fetishism" or "unrealistic" just bcuz you, personally, can't relate to it. Ppl writing stories to THEIR OWN tastes are not trying to affect reality. Not everything is about you.
A gay fic wasn't written by a straight person just bcuz you don't vibe with it - you just have some unpacked, internalized homophobia.
It’s just body-shaming and toxic masculinity on top of everything else.
The only gay male fetishist here is YOU for insinuating gay men only looks or act a "certain" way.
Yes! Let's protect gay ppl from fetishizers by forcing them into a box and whoever doesn't fit the mold isn't a "real" gay person.
We have to look and act the same, have the same attractions, same interests, same beliefs, etc.
Us queers are a monolith - we're not allowed to be different! We're not allowed to have unique issues!
Why do you have such a big problem with how other ppl express and explore THEIR OWN sexuality?And another thing I noticed was the ones that are very outspoken about the fujoshi thing, most of the time aren’t even gay men.
Being an anti-fujoshi is just yet another clout-chasing movement bcuz half of y'all never even contributed to not one charity or GoFundMe to actually help gay dudes, nor actively support any queer male artist.
You can quit the fake-ass activism now - it’s obvious y’all don’t really give a shit about gay men or their opinions considering y’all are quick to invalidate them by misgendering them (by calling them a fujoshi - extra TERF points if the man in question is trans.) when they criticize you, or purposely mistranslate fudanshi to “straight men that fetishizes GL”.
Radfems/TERFs outchere feigning concern for "real" gay men and "protecting" them from the big, bad and scary fujoshis by spreading their undisguised TERF rhetoric all over fandom and y’all are going along with it mindlessly bcuz y'all don't care about trans ppl enough to notice.
Everyone cares about gay men when you can use them as shields to spout your transphobia from!
If your gay activism is resulting in harassment, invalidating sexualities, ppl getting misgendered/mislabeled left and right, and being forced out of the closet then it's not activism - you're just a TERF with extra steps.
You'd think misgendering 5 different ppl in one week would urge you to take a step back and go, "Maaaybe this way of thinking is doing more harm than good." but, alas, not everyone is introspective.
“Cishet women shouldn't be reading yaoi/BL and cishet men shouldn’t be reading yuri/GL but it’s okay for trans ppl, though :).”
Your sorry attempt at giving transhets a "pass" to read gay shit is implied transphobia cuz you're invalidating them as straight ppl and trying to bridge a gap between cis and trans ppl like we're sooooo different from each other. AND you're also isolating agender/genderfluid ppl.
Can't care too much about trans ppl if you easily forget that not all of us identifies within the gender binary and/or identifies as just one.
"Yes, trans women are women, but they're not 'just' like women cuz they're AMAB."“Bu- but this person is a gay man and even they agree that—“Yea, cuz gay men definitely can’t be xenophobic, misogynist, or transphobic; that’s impossible!
Cis-gay men are still men at the end of the day. Patriarchal pick-me's are very much in the community.
Some misogynistic gay men are only anti-patriarchy bcuz they're aware that they're also victims to it - not bcuz they think women and trans deserve rights.
Gay men are just as capable of being vile, weird, and oppressive towards women as much as straight ones, but y'all ain't ready for that conversation.“Bu-but the experiences we have—-“I’ve had bad experiences with racist white ppl. Am I gonna assume that every white person is racist? No. Again, just bcuz you had bad experiences with 1 or 2 weirdos doesn’t mean that ALL fujoshis act like that - your experience is not universal.
True enough, BL has it’s weird-ass fans but EVERY genre has their weird-ass fans. Ppl (especially teenagers) squeal over their fave music bands, actors/actresses, books, fictional characters, etc., too. Common sense, if they’re also into BL/GL they’re gonna do the exact same shit that they do with everything else. We are not that special.“I’m not gatekeeping. I just don’t want queers to be sexualized—“Gays have sex just like everybody else. Gays are in porn. Lemme guess: You’re one of those “normal” Christian conservative gays that wants to appeal to the moral sensibilities of our oppressors so you’re quick to call gays who’s livelihoods are different from yours “degenerates” or even accuse them of being pedophiles.
Or you're always arguing that gay sex is automatically for "the straight gaze".
We aren't allowed to have sex? We aren't allowed to express our sexualities?
When conservatives say they want to get rid of sexual content, they mean porn AND queer media.
We ARE porn to these ppl.
This standpoint is the equivalent to cishets telling queer couples not to be affectionate in public like straight ppl don't do the exact same shit.
Do you clutch your pearls over the existence of straight porn? Do you keep tabs on who's reading straight shit? No? Okay then.“I’m an NSFW queer artist and even I agree that not all queer art has to be NSFW.”No one is arguing that queer media should only be NSFW - you just made that up.
We’re pointing out that the hostility against NSFW queer media is STUPID and POINTLESS (and on some SWERF level shit) bcuz LGBT+phobes views queerness as a whole "sexual" no matter how wholesome or “clean” the queer content is.
Lightyear was banned in 7+ countries over a scene where two same-sex side characters give each other a simple peck on the lips. This was in 2022.
If countries are willing to ban an entire movie over a two second kiss scene that the animators were clearly uncomfortable with animating, then what do you think they're gonna do with everything else?
If that was the case, the mfs wouldn't hate us asexuals.
FYI, straight porn gets banned, too. You can never appease ppl whose sole existence is built upon hating you.
The way y’all choose to be obtuse for some respectabilty is weird.

“We just want gay stories by actual gays.”Correction: You want gay stories made by open queers for open queers.Are you aware that not everyone is safe to come out?
Are you aware that not every queer can be open with their gender/sexual identity, not even online?
Are you aware that actual open queers are being denied publishing and support for not being “queer enough”?
You get to consume, create, and share gay art whenever you want, with whomever you want, however you please.
Not every gay person has that luxury. Check your privilege.
Coming out is not a requirement.
There’s nothing stopping you from supporting queers.
There’s nothing stopping you from creating/consuming “wholesome” queer art.
There’s nothing stopping you from finding and indulging in queer art that suits YOUR taste.
There's also nothing stopping you from writing YOUR OWN shit.
You can do that without yanking ppl's pants off.
All your gatekeeping is doing is FORCING gays out when they’re not in a position to (or just simply don't want to), LIMITING who can or can’t create/consume gay shit, and inducing this idea that if said gay media isn’t “good enough”, it shouldn’t exist.
Y'all spend more time worried about whether ppl are queerbaiting or jerking off to gay fic than supporting gay ppl.
I’ve seen a lot of ppl, gay and straight, that stopped consuming gay media ALTOGETHER bcuz y’all got these ppl thinking that them simply consuming it is automatically fetishization.
Like ALL FICTIONAL MEDIA, not all gay media is meant to be representative or “accurate”, some queer art is just self-indulgent escapism.
Are y’all this uptight and bitchy when it comes to straight media? Do y’all cry this much when a gay actor plays a straight role or when a gay artist draws straight or m/f pairings? No? Okay, then.
Those “bad” gay stories has every right to exist as much as the “good” and “authentic” ones.
I rather terrible gay art exist than none at all.
A lot of straight media has shitty writing too, but I don't see y'all complaining about that.
Boyfriends is a wholesome BL comic but y'all treat it and its creator like shit over minor past actions that he's either already apologized for and moved on from.Not everything is “queerbaiting.” If there was no intention to bait, then it’s not queer baiting.
Again, ppl questioning their sexuality or being closeted is a thing.
Just bcuz someone wasn't out before but coming out now isn't automatically queerbaiting.
For all you know, they could've been gay the entire time.
Some ppl don't come out, or even realize they're gay until their late 20s or even early 40s, or even a little later.
There are "gay" ppl that realize that they may be, in fact, NOT gay. Straight ppl exploring their sexuality is a thing, too. If there's so many ways to be gay, then there's so many ways to be straight.
That doesn't automatically mean they were pretending.
For some ppl, it really IS a phase, and that's fine!
Identities are complicated bcuz humans are complicated! And bcuz identity is complicated, some ppl choose more than one label or no label at all.
Identities are PERSONAL; labels are used to define, not bind. Coming out, staying in/going back in the closet, transitioning, or detransitioning - you're not losing or gaining anything from other ppl's identity. The only person who's identity you should be governing is your own.
Queerbaiting is not an actual problem.
Lena and Yulia (t.A.T.u) were minors (15 - 16 yos) throughout the start of their career ON TOP of having a predatory manager, whom is the reason for their queerbaiting in the first place.
Hell, there was prolly a point in time they thought they really were lesbians.
Even if they actually were WLW, they were still two underaged girls being objectified/sexualized, having their sexualities exploited for the appeal of fetishists and pedophiles, and was being groomed/assaulted by their manager.
Far more repulsive than them pretending to be gay for pay.
Jojo Siwa being confused about her sexuality and realizing (again) that she's attracted to men isn't the issue. She's young, that's understandable.
The REAL issue is that she cheated on her partner while figuring herself out (with a guy that's twice her age). Whether she's really LGBT+ or not (or ever was to begin with) is uncertain but irrelevant cuz she's a prick regardless.Straight actors playing gay characters, straight ppl writing gay shit yada yada is not that big of a deal compared to other shit we face.
An 18+ HeartStopprr actor was forced out of the closet by insecure-ass LGBT+s accusing him of queerbaiting (and missing the entire point of the book/show).
The faster y'all learn to stop accusing real individuals of queerbaiting, the better it would be for queers overall.
Homophobes still ban queer books written by straight ppl bcuz it's STILL a book depicting homosexuality. You think they give a fuck if it's "authentic" or not?
How many queer characters in a show are there compared to straight ones?
How many trans/nonbinary characters are there compared to cis ones?
How many characters of color exist compared to white ones?
Not many, right?
So what will this call for "authentic" casting and representation will result in?
Little to no representation for US, not cishet white ppl.
Marginalized creators are the ones that'll be out of a job most of the time, not cishet white males.
And, again, not every queer person is in a safe and/or comfortable enough position to be out.
So y'all want queer ppl to risk their safety just so you can have your little "authentic" representation?
Yeah, I would like for more queer ppl to be out and happy, too!
I would love to see more gay ppl being able to openly play queer roles and such, but I don't want queer ppl to be tied to just one role and not every queer/trans person gets to have that freedom.
A freedom they could have if y'all put energy into things that could actually make things safer for queer/trans ppl.
Unless a movie or show is centered around queer POC, but how often is that?
And God knows y'all whine up and down about diversity and representation, but don't want to support indie creators that makes the content y'all beg for.
No matter how many corporations and industries claim they're inclusive, they will ALWAYS prioritize and cater to the appeal of cishet white men.
Gay ppl don’t write gay shit ALL the damn time, so what makes you think that a straight person wants to write about straight shit ALL the damn time?!
WLW don't always want to create/consume GL and MLM don't always want to create/consume BL. They don't HAVE to!
My works being mainly erotica doesn't change the fact that I'm an aromantic person.
The pairings within being mainly m/f doesn't change the fact that I'm biromantic.
We are still gay ppl.
If I want a sustainable living as a queer artist, then why would I limit my audience to just one demographic?
If straight ppl are consuming my art, hell even jerking off to it - they're paying for it!
Why would I have a problem with straight ppl giving me money?!?! It's just art.
There's no fucking rule that says you can't write about experiences and dynamics that’s not necessarily or completely your own.
As long as they're not fucking with you and your rights, then it's not an issue!
Everybody wants to be progressive and woke until y'all realize the ideology y'all push for ends up not working in your favor like you thought it would.
You can talk about gay fetishism, queer/transphobia and the dangers it brings without skipping around and spreading disinformation on labels and terms you don't understand, queer books that's not written to your standards or expectations, and profiling random strangers.
To say a lot of you queers preach inclusivity and equity, y'all are very quick to dismiss viewpoints and experiences that don't align with yours.
Everything becomes a problem when you don't know what a real problem is.Why gatekeep something you want normalized?!
What's so special about straight shit that makes it so widely accepted, even in queer spaces, but some funk-ass "You must be this queer" criteria gotta be met just to create/consume gay shit??!
You can whine about fujoshits all day on the internet and go out and get your ass beat just for wearing nail polish or for wearing the "wrong" type of clothing.
The only gatekeeping I can understand is limiting straight ppl from attending gay events or gay bars/clubs cuz there's a high chance that fetishizers and violent queerphobes can infiltrate these places and cause actual harm and/or discomfort.
Wanting to stay safe is valid, but gatekeeping shit like who can and can't do drag is trivial and isn't protecting you from anything.
The more you gatekeep, the less inclusive and more hostile the community becomes, and that makes shit harder for US - not cishets.
Again, being uncomfortable is not the same as being threatened.
If there's already a lot of homo/transphobes that drop ENTIRE shows just bcuz it has ONE queer character with 2 seconds of screen time, why would you think they'd give a fuck about you not wanting them to read gay shit?
If there’s already teachers out here that refuses to discuss homosexuality in their classrooms and districts removing queer books out of school libraries, what makes you think they’d give a fuck about you not wanting them to read gay shit?
These mfs would burn down a queer library before they’ll buy and read anything out of it.
Thanks for making our oppressors’ mission to limit/completely erase queer art even easier!
You should be ENCOURAGING more straight ppl to read gay shit; them refusing to do so is one of the main reasons we're still in this mess!
After a while none of us won’t be reading gay shit AT ALL, either due to the erasure of gay art, us being dead, or both.
Our gay elders didn't fight and die for you to have rights just to waste time debating who gets oppressed/fetishized more, what labels are/aren't valid, or which homosexual gay queer mf can or can't say dyke or fag.
What good isl this infighting gonna serve us when we're all dead?I hope y'all learn to love yourselves more than you hate your fellow degenerates. For your own sake.

My Twitter Rants on Various Queer Discourse (pretty much everything I stated here):

• Labels DEFINE us, not "bind" us
• Rant on Hate for Dark Queer Series/Evil Queer Characters
• Gays Using "Fetishize" and "Sexualize" Wrong
• Gays Fighting Each Other Instead of the Homophobia
• It's Fictional Preference, Not Fetishization/Homophobia
• Cishet with a Queer Fetish, Or a Closeted/Questioning Queer/Trans?

Sources/Receipts

• What is Fujoshi?
• No one here has the power to take your gay card away
• Let Women and Men, Gay or Not, Jerk Off in Peace
• Anti-Fujoshi Rhetoric has Long Transphobic Roots Ex.1
• Japanese Gay Men's Attitudes Towards 'Gay Manga' and the Problem of Genre
• Shoujosei Mangaka Who Also Write Queer Works And Vice Versa: A Thread
• BL overcame gay discrimination expression in this way...
• Gengoroh Tagame on Upending Traditional Japanese Culture
• Rotten Boys Club (1)
• Rotten Boys Club (2)
• Gender Critical Article from 1998: "Gay People Should Be Banned from Locker Rooms"